atom feed730 messages in org.kde.kde-cafeRe: http://www.linuxandmain.com/comme...
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590 later messages
Subject:Re: http://www.linuxandmain.com/comment/ed040702.html
From:Timothy R. Butler (tbut@uninetsolutions.com)
Date:Apr 13, 2002 7:37:05 pm
List:org.kde.kde-cafe

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Hi Dre,

Really? Here's some questions for you, then:

(1) a "Goyim" that converts to Judaism - is s/he an Israeli/Jew? How do you know when the conversion occurred?

(2) is someone borne of a Jewish father but "Goyim" mother Jewish? If so, and person marries another "Goyim" woman, is that child Jewish? Hmm, I guess I remember some quite racist groups in Germany (for Jews) and the US (for African Americans) trying to draw these lines . . . .

Even a lot of Israelis struggled with the issue of Ethiopian Jews . . .

I'm surely not qualified to answer that one. I do know some Jewish organizations keep records of which people have which genetic traits to avoid two people marrying that have the two needed copies of a genetic trait to cause a genetic decease. This is necessary mostly because Jews generally do not have a lot of Goyims in their family tree. I think there is still a clear Jewish ethnic group - just like there is clearly a Germanic group or Anglo group, or whatever to infinitum. As far as Goyim-Jews, I have no idea - maybe you should ask a Rabbi.

One thing is for sure. None of the modern-day Jews lived in Israel in 70 AD, and hence their claim, based on their ancestors living there, is totally and completely invalid. But you refuse to acknowledge this b/c somehow in your view Jews have a "special status", perhaps because God has "chosen" them? I find this view to be as racist as any other.

Well, if I would argue that, it certainly wouldn't be out of any advantage to me - since I have absolutely no Jewish heritage, AFAIK. Still, that obviously is not a satisfactory reasoning.

Going for something more practical though... whether you like it or not, the State of Israel exists. The only thing we can do is argue if the Palistinians have a right to the land over the Jews. The majority of them have never lived there (and if you wait another 50 or so years you can assure that none had), and then we can argue:

One thing is for sure. None of the modern-day Palastinians lived in Israel in 1942 AD, and hence their claim, based on their ancestors living there, is totally and completely invalid.

But why should it be 2,000 years? Perhaps Germany should grab back parts of Poland b/c they had it some years before - oops, been there, done that, failed. Didn't Iraq try to "restore" Kuwait? And what about Cyprus, should that be "restored" as well? Heck, even some barren islands off Argentinia could be "restored", no?

Except for a few groups - the Palistians being one of them - I know of few people who do not have a nation for their nation (so to speak) like the Israelis.

Maybe the Ottoman Empire should be restored? And the Roman Empire? Let's not leave out the Persian Empire. Heck, let's restore them all. Oops, can't work, they overlap :-(. Gee, so I guess a policy of restoring old empires can't be generally applied, pity that :-/.

Sure restore them all, then we'd just have one big combination of government, and they'd be all so busy trying to figure out their jurisdiction none of them could fight.

Okay. You can have a house there. :-) You don't need all of Manhattan for yourself, do you?

What if he does? Who's to argue with God, after all?

If he can take it somehow, go right ahead. If God did tell him to, then God will make it work... after all, in 1900 who would have thought we'd have a modern state of Israel. About 4,000 years before, who thought that there would be an ancient state of Israel?

No, I don't think anyone is arguing that. But putting Jewish refugees into Israel and creating Palestinian refugees does not solve the problem, does it, unless you somehow value a Jew more than a Palestinian, which is essentially what is being said between the lines.

Perhaps that wasn't great... but, we can't undo it now, can we (without making a whole new group of refugees)?

Let's take a look at Montana. A huge state, with almost no people. Why not there? Or Wyoming? There are plenty of decent places in the world to live that are not fully populated like Palestine was. But of course the UN powers did not want to give up *their* land, much more palatable to take from the Palestinians what was theirs.

It wouldn't be Israel for one thing...

The principle is much broader. No person should be blamed for the crimes of another.

Correct.

When I take a gander at history, and compare the wars and invasions sponsored by Judaeo-Christians, on the one hand, and Mulsims, on the other, well, it's quite unbalanced, isn't it? Heavily imbalanced, in fact.

So is the number of Judaeo-Christian empires. The more powerful the government the more wars - it isn't the fact that Christians are more warring as much as they had the biggest empires (think the Roman Empire - which eventually became Christian). More correctly, Europe has produced the largest empires.

OTOH "Christian" countries seem, through the ages, to be perpetually fighting wars, with each other as well as with non-Christian countries which for all intents and purposes were busy minding their own

What about the Persians? Babloynians? Not to mention the many wars that took place in the far east...

business. Was it India that invaded Great Britain? Was it Native Americans that invaded Europe? Was it Africans that enslaved

No, but often times Africans sold other Africans.

Europeans? Did Muslims start WW I and WW II, the Napoleonic wars, or the Crusades?

No. Neither did Christians. WWI and WWII was never argued for/again using a religious method. It was purely "us" (the provoked) against "them" (the provokers) or vise versa. Worthy note: Japan was an axis power and Japan certainly is not know for it's overwhelmingly large Christian population. ;-)

At the risk of over-generalizing, I don't think you can blame this violence on religion.

The problem is it is religious, but it isn't. It is religious because Jewish Scripture says the Jews belong in Israel. It is religious because Palastinian militants are willing to use the Qu'ran to justify the positions. Underneath though, you are right, most of them aren't really interested in it for religious reasons.

-Tim

- -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler tbut@uninetsolutions.com Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Open Source Migration Guide: http://www.ofb.biz ============= "Christian Web Services Since 1996" ============== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

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