|Roman Shaposhnik||Feb 26, 2013 5:43 pm|
|Chris Embree||Feb 26, 2013 6:52 pm|
|Luke Lu||Feb 27, 2013 11:03 am|
|Arun C Murthy||Mar 1, 2013 10:58 am|
|Vinod Kumar Vavilapalli||Mar 1, 2013 12:23 pm|
|Konstantin Boudnik||Mar 1, 2013 7:52 pm|
|Konstantin Boudnik||Mar 4, 2013 10:15 pm|
|Robert Evans||Mar 5, 2013 7:18 am|
|Konstantin Boudnik||Mar 5, 2013 9:02 pm|
|Giridharan Kesavan||Mar 5, 2013 10:05 pm|
|Arun C Murthy||Mar 6, 2013 7:24 am|
|Konstantin Boudnik||Mar 6, 2013 10:19 am|
|Ted Yu||Mar 7, 2013 3:29 pm|
|Roman Shaposhnik||Mar 8, 2013 9:55 am|
|Matt Foley||Mar 8, 2013 2:16 pm|
|Thomas Graves||Mar 8, 2013 3:46 pm|
|Matt Foley||Mar 8, 2013 4:35 pm|
|Subject:||Re: [DISCUSS] stabilizing Hadoop releases wrt. downstream|
|From:||Giridharan Kesavan (gkes...@hortonworks.com)|
|Date:||Mar 5, 2013 10:05:02 pm|
Thanks Bobby. I 've setup a unit test job<https://builds.apache.org/view/Hadoop/job/Hadoop-Common-2-Build/>to execute unit test's on branch-2 on a daily basis. I'm happy to help with build setup. Let me know.
On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 9:02 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org> wrote:
Great start, Bobby! I certainly can jump on fix something quickly if needed as well (neither an RE person, but CI is truly a dev. tool!)
On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 07:18AM, Robert Evans wrote:
That is a great point. I have been meaning to set up the Jenkins build for branch-2 for a while, so I took the 10 mins and just did it.
Don't let the name fool you, it publishes not just common, but HDFS, YARN, MR, and tools too. You should now have branch-2 SNAPSHOTS updated on each commit to branch-2. Feel free to bug me if you need more integration points. I am not an RE guy, but I can hack it to make things work :)
On 3/5/13 12:15 AM, "Konstantin Boudnik" <co...@apache.org> wrote:
first of all, I don't think anyone is trying to put a blame on someone else. E.g. I had similar experience with Oozie being broken because of certain released changes in the upstream.
I am sure that most people in BigTop community - especially those who share the committer-ship privilege in BigTop and other upstream projects, including Hadoop, - would be happy to help with the stabilization of the Hadoop base. The issue that a downstream integration project is likely to have is - for once - the absence of regularly published development artifacts. In the light of "it didn't happen if there's no picture" here's a couple of examples:
- 2.0.2-SNAPSHOT weren't published at all; only release 2.0.2-alpha artifacts were - 2.0.3-SNAPSHOT weren't published until Feb 29, 2013 (it happened just once)
So, technically speaking, unless an integration project is willing to build and maintain its own artifacts, it is impossible to do any preventive validation.
Which brings me to my next question: how do you guys address "Integration is high on the list of *every* release". Again, please don't get me wrong - I am not looking to lay a blame on or corner anyone - I am really curious and would appreciate the input.
As you yourself noted later, the pain is part of the 'alpha' status of the release. We are targeting +one of the immediate future releases to be a beta and so these troubles are really only the short +term.
I don't really want to get into the discussion about of what constitutes the alpha and how it has delayed the adoption of Hadoop2 line. However, I want to point out that it is especially important for "alpha" platform to work nicely with downstream consumers of the said platform. For quite obvious reasons, I believe.
I think there is a fundamental problem with the interaction of Bigtop with the downstream projects, if nothing else, with
BigTop is as downstream as it can get, because BigTop essentially consumes all other component releases in order to produce a viable stack. Technicalities aside...
Hadoop. We never formalized on the process, will BigTop step in after an RC is up for vote or before? As I see it, it's happening
Bigtop essentially can give any component, including Hadoop, and better yet - the set of components - certain guaratees about compatibility and dependencies being included. Case in point is missing commons libraries missed in 1.0.1 release that essentially prevented HBase from working properly.
after the vote is up, so no wonder we are in this state. Shall we have a pre-notice to Bigtop so that it can step in before?
The above is in contradiction with earlier statement of "Integration is high on the list of *every* release". If BigTop isn't used for integration testing, then how said integration testing is performed? Is it some sort of test-patch process as Luke referred earlier? And why it leaves the room for the integration issues being uncaught? Again, I am genuinely interested to know.
these short term pains. I'd rather like us swim through these now instead of support broken APIs and features in our beta, having seen this very thing happen with 1.*.
I think you're mixing the point of integration with downstream and being in an alpha phase of the development. The former isn't about supporting "broken APIs" - it is about being consistent and avoid breaking the downstream applicaitons without letting said applications to accomodate the platform changes first.
Changes in the API, after all, can be relatively easy traced by integration validation - this is the whole point of integration testing. And BigTop does the job better then anything around, simply because there's nothing else around to do it.
If you stay in shape-shifting "alpha" that doesn't integrate well for a very long time, you risk to lose downstream customers' interest, because they might get tired of waiting until a next stable API will be ready for them.
Let's fix the way the release related communication is happening across our projects so that we can all work together and make 2.X a success.
This is a very good point indeed! Let's start a separate discussion thread on how we can improve the release model for coming Hadoop releases, where we - as the community - can provide better guarantees of the inter-component compatibility (sorry for an overused word).
On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 10:58AM, Arun C Murthy wrote:
I feel this is being blown out of proportion.
Integration is high on the list of *every* release. In future, if anyone or bigtop wants to help, running integration tests on a hadoop RC and providing feedback would be very welcome. I'm pretty sure I will stop an RC if it means it breaks and Oozie or HBase or Pig or Hive and re-spin it. For e.g. see recent efforts to do a 2.0.4-alpha.
With hadoop-2.0.3-alpha we discovered 3 *bugs* - making it sound like we intentionally disregard integation issues is very harsh.
Please also see other thread where we discussed stabilizing APIS, protocols etc. for the next 'beta' release.
On Feb 26, 2013, at 5:43 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
for the past couple of releases of Hadoop 2.X code line the issue of integration between Hadoop and its downstream projects has become quite a thorny issue. The poster child here is Oozie, where every release of Hadoop 2.X seems to be breaking the compatibility in various unpredictable ways. At times other components (such as HBase for example) also seem to be affected.
Now, to be extremely clear -- I'm NOT talking about the *latest* version of Oozie working with the *latest* version of Hadoop, instead my observations come from running previous *stable* releases of Bigtop on top of Hadoop 2.X RCs.
As many of you know Apache Bigtop aims at providing a single platform for integration of Hadoop and Hadoop ecosystem projects. As such we're uniquely positioned to track compatibility between different Hadoop releases with regards to the downstream components (things like Oozie, Pig, Hive, Mahout, etc.). Every single single RC we've been pretty diligent at trying to provide integration-level feedback on the quality of the upcoming release, but it seems that our efforts don't quite suffice in Hadoop 2.X stabilizing.
Of course, one could argue that while Hadoop 2.X code line was designated 'alpha' expecting much in the way of perfect integration and compatibility was NOT what the Hadoop community was focusing on. I can appreciate that view, but what I'm interested in is the future of Hadoop 2.X not its past. Hence, here's my question to all of you as a Hadoop community at large:
Do you guys think that the project have reached a point where integration and compatibility issues should be prioritized really high on the list of things that make or break each future release?
The good news, is that Bigtop's charter is in big part *exactly* about providing you with this kind of feedback. We can easily tell you when Hadoop behavior, with regard to downstream components, changes between a previous stable release and the new RC (or even branch/trunk). What we can NOT do is submit patches for all the issues. We are simply too small a project and we need your help with that.
I truly believe that we owe it to the downstream projects, and in the second half of this email I will try to convince you of that.
We all know that integration projects are impossible to pull off unless there's a general consensus between all of the projects involved that they indeed need to work with each other. You can NOT force that notion, but you can always try to influence. This relationship goes both ways.
Consider a question in front of the downstream communities of whether or not to adopt Hadoop 2.X as the basis. To answer that question each downstream project has to be reasonably sure that their concerns will NOT fall on deaf ears and that Hadoop developers are, essentially, 'ready' for them to pick up Hadoop 2.X. I would argue that so far the Hadoop community had gone out of its way to signal that 2.X codeline is NOT ready for the downstream.
I would argue that moving forward this is a really unfortunate situation that may end up undermining the long term success of Hadoop 2.X if we don't start addressing the problem. Think about it -- 90% of unit tests that run downstream on Apache infrastructure are still exercising Hadoop 1.X underneath. In fact, if you were to forcefully make, lets say, HBase's unit tests run on top of Hadoop 2.X quite a few of them are going to fail. Hadoop community is, in effect, cutting itself off from the biggest source of feedback -- its downstream users. This in turn:
* leaves Hadoop project in a perpetual state of broken windows syndrome.
* leaves Apache Hadoop 2.X releases in a state considerably inferior to the releases *including* Apache Hadoop done by the vendors. The users have no choice but to alight themselves with vendor offerings if they wish to utilize latest Hadoop functionality. The artifact that is know as Apache Hadoop 2.X stopped being a viable choice thus fracturing the user community and reducing the benefits of a commonly deployed codebase.
* leaves downstream projects of Hadoop in a jaded state where they legitimately get very discouraged and frustrated and eventually give up thinking that -- well, we work with one release of Hadoop (the stable one Hadoop 1.X) and we shall wait for the Hadoop community to get their act together.
In my view (shared by quite a few members of the Apache Bigtop) we can definitely do better than this if we all agree that the proposed first 'beta' release of Hadoop 2.0.4 is the right time for it to happen.
It is about time Hadoop 2.X community wins back all those end users and downstream projects that got left behind during the alpha stabilization phase.
-- Arun C. Murthy Hortonworks Inc. http://hortonworks.com/