64 messages in org.apache.incubator.generalRe: [PROPOSAL] Flex for Apache Incubator| From | Sent On | Attachments |
|---|---|---|
| Alex Harui | Dec 19, 2011 12:20 pm | |
| Greg Stein | Dec 19, 2011 12:44 pm | |
| Donald Whytock | Dec 19, 2011 12:45 pm | |
| Marcel Offermans | Dec 19, 2011 12:57 pm | |
| Dave McAllister | Dec 19, 2011 1:51 pm | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 19, 2011 3:39 pm | |
| ralp...@dslextreme.com | Dec 19, 2011 3:47 pm | |
| Greg Stein | Dec 19, 2011 6:08 pm | |
| Kalle Korhonen | Dec 19, 2011 8:55 pm | |
| Alex Harui | Dec 19, 2011 10:32 pm | |
| Leo Simons | Dec 20, 2011 1:01 am | |
| Bertrand Delacretaz | Dec 20, 2011 2:22 am | |
| Bertrand Delacretaz | Dec 20, 2011 2:27 am | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 20, 2011 4:44 am | |
| Bertrand Delacretaz | Dec 20, 2011 5:38 am | |
| Alex Harui | Dec 20, 2011 8:03 am | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 20, 2011 12:30 pm | |
| Greg Stein | Dec 20, 2011 12:37 pm | |
| Dave McAllister | Dec 20, 2011 12:41 pm | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 20, 2011 1:48 pm | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 20, 2011 1:54 pm | |
| Carol Frampton | Dec 20, 2011 1:55 pm | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 20, 2011 2:03 pm | |
| Carol Frampton | Dec 20, 2011 2:10 pm | |
| Ross Gardler | Dec 20, 2011 2:24 pm | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 20, 2011 2:31 pm | |
| William A. Rowe Jr. | Dec 20, 2011 2:35 pm | |
| Daniel Shahaf | Dec 20, 2011 2:44 pm | |
| Ross Gardler | Dec 20, 2011 2:51 pm | |
| Alex Harui | Dec 20, 2011 3:22 pm | |
| Alex Harui | Dec 20, 2011 3:27 pm | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 20, 2011 4:46 pm | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 20, 2011 6:00 pm | |
| Greg Stein | Dec 20, 2011 6:10 pm | |
| Craig L Russell | Dec 20, 2011 11:35 pm | |
| Bertrand Delacretaz | Dec 21, 2011 12:59 am | |
| Bertrand Delacretaz | Dec 21, 2011 1:09 am | |
| Alex Harui | Dec 21, 2011 1:50 am | |
| William A. Rowe Jr. | Dec 21, 2011 1:56 am | |
| William A. Rowe Jr. | Dec 21, 2011 2:01 am | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 21, 2011 2:05 am | |
| Bertrand Delacretaz | Dec 21, 2011 2:15 am | |
| William A. Rowe Jr. | Dec 21, 2011 2:41 am | |
| Bertrand Delacretaz | Dec 21, 2011 2:59 am | |
| Ross Gardler | Dec 21, 2011 4:06 am | |
| Bertrand Delacretaz | Dec 21, 2011 4:49 am | |
| Ross Gardler | Dec 21, 2011 5:03 am | |
| Craig L Russell | Dec 21, 2011 5:36 am | |
| Carol Frampton | Dec 21, 2011 6:19 am | |
| Leo Simons | Dec 21, 2011 6:42 am | |
| Bertrand Delacretaz | Dec 21, 2011 6:51 am | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 21, 2011 7:04 am | |
| Rui Silva | Dec 21, 2011 7:21 am | |
| Carol Frampton | Dec 21, 2011 7:29 am | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 21, 2011 12:35 pm | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 22, 2011 2:04 am | |
| Bertrand Delacretaz | Dec 22, 2011 2:19 am | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 22, 2011 2:25 am | |
| Peter Elst | Dec 22, 2011 2:27 am | |
| Greg Stein | Dec 22, 2011 2:30 am | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 22, 2011 5:27 am | |
| Greg Stein | Dec 22, 2011 6:47 am | |
| Raju Bitter | Dec 22, 2011 7:08 am | |
| Bertrand Delacretaz | Dec 23, 2011 7:08 am |
| Subject: | Re: [PROPOSAL] Flex for Apache Incubator | |
|---|---|---|
| From: | Raju Bitter (raju...@googlemail.com) | |
| Date: | Dec 20, 2011 4:44:32 am | |
| List: | org.apache.incubator.general | |
Thanks for the detailed answers, Alex.
2011/12/20 Alex Harui <aha...@adobe.com>:
My responses inline.
On 12/19/11 3:39 PM, "Raju Bitter" <raju...@googlemail.com> wrote:
Hi Alex,
the proposal looks very promising. I have a few questions around ActionScript, runtime environments for compiled code, HTML5/JavaScript cross-compilation support, and target runtime environments listed:
1) When you speak of ActionScript, is it planned to continue the development of the ActionScript language as a standard separate from future JavaScript standards? I know that ActionScript 3 is an ECMAScript 4 dialect (http://www-archive.mozilla.org/projects/tamarin/), but believe it would make sense to set the goal to move away from ActionScript 3 in favor of a future ECMAScript/JavaScript version (long term goal, of course).
This proposal is about the Flex SDK, which is currently written in ActionScript 3. It is my understanding that a future decision to move away from ActionScript 3 would be decided by those contributing to the project. I would not state it as a goal in this proposal as I don't think there is a good alternative at this time.
I was just wondering if Adobe already had plans for any change to the language, since initially it looked like ActionScript 3 might be the future JavaScript. And given the amount of work it would take on the tooling side it's not something which could be easily done. But the idea behind Tamarin, to bring native ActionScript 3/ECMAScript 4 support to the browser, wasn't a bad idea - at least in my eyes.
2) Flex for desktop / Flash Player Since the current version of the compiler "only" compiles to ActionScript bytecode, it effectively would mean that an Apache Software Foundation project would generate output which - in a desktop browser - can only be executed by the proprietary Adobe Flash Player. Are there any other ASF projects targeting proprietary runtime environments? Wouldn't it be desirable to support an open standards based runtime environment as well (Falcon JS)?
It is my understanding that it is up to those contributing to the project, but I expect there will be work done that explores migration strategies, including cross-compiling to other runtime environments.
Yes, that's definitely one of a future features of the project.
3) Falcon JS: ActionScript 3 -> JavaScript 1.5 cross-compilation I'm aware of the FalconJS research Adobe has started (an ActionScript 3 to JavaScript 1.5 cross-compiler, which can be integrated into the next version of the Adobe/Apache Flex SDK). Supporting JavaScript generation out of ActionScript (including CSS styling) could turn Apache Flex into the perfect platform for smooth migration to HTML 5 applications in enterprises. FalconJS is not mentioned in the proposal, but a blog post of the Adobe Flex Compiler team on Nov 19th (http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html) it has been said that Falcon JS would be contributed to the ASF as well:
In addition to contributing the core Flex SDK (including automation and advanced data visualization components), Adobe also plans to donate the following: + Falcon, the next-generation MXML and ActionScript compiler that is currently under development (this will be contributed when complete in 2012) + Falcon JS, an experimental cross-compiler from MXML and ActionScript to HTML and JavaScript.
Is that still the plan, since Falcon JS is not mentioned in the proposal? I can imagine that there would be a lot of interest in the community to see Falcon JS contributed, even if the the product is not feature complete.
The plan is to donate the Flex SDK to Apache, then start the process of donating other Flex-related projects. Next will probably be BlazeDS. FalconJS is on the list. Many people believe that the differences between ActionScript and JavaScript (AS has Dictionary and weak references and ByteArrays) will make the effort to cross-compile a given Flex app to JS either impossible, impractical, or non-performant.
Again, that's a good point. I'm not mainly thinking of cross-compiling from Flex/MXML/AS3 to JavaScript. But there are applications and even libraries written in ActionScript 3, which could be cross-compiled to JavaScript. The typing of the AS3 language would be helpful when building larger, more complex JS libraries.
4) iOS, Android, RIM, Windows & OS X support In the proposal you state:
Apache Flex allows developers to target a variety of platforms, initially Apple iOS, Google Android, RIM BlackBerry, Microsoft Windows, and Mac OS X with a single codebase.
My understanding of the proposal is, that you are only proposing to contribute the Flex SDK, as opposed to the Flex SDK AND the Adobe AIR SDK. http://www.adobe.com/products/air.html The Flex SDK alone doesn't enable developers to compile from ActionScript 3 into iOS, Android, RIM, Windows and OS X. That means, it would still require the proprietary AIR SDK to support all those platforms. Therefore the proposal should mention that developers could target a variety of additional platforms, if they choose to download the Adobe AIR SDK and runtime. I understand that it might not be possible to completely open source the AIR SDK, due to legal issues.
Yes, some other SDKs that are listed as External Dependencies are required to produce a running Flex application.
That's what I thought, thanks for the clarification.
5) PhoneGap / Apache Callback proposal Nitobi proposed to contribute PhoneGap to the ASF (http://wiki.phonegap.com/w/page/46311152/apache-callback-proposal). After that announcement, Nitobi has been acquired by Adobe. If Falcon JS will be released, it would be possible to integrate Falcon JS compilation with PhoneGap (HTML5/JavaScript based mobile apps for a variety of platforms). Even if it is possible to compile ActionScript 3 into iOS or Android applications (native), the ActionScript 3 -> JavaScript -> PhoneGap approach would be equally powerful, and could be completely supported with open source tools. Of course, that would depend on the availability of the Falcon JS cross-compilation feature.
7) Adobe Flash runtimes http://www.adobe.com/products/flashplatformruntimes.html The runtimes currently targeted by the Flex SDK (without Falcon JS) are http://www.adobe.com/products/flashplayer.html http://www.adobe.com/products/air.html I would suggest to add the long-term goal of adding another (non-proprietary) runtime to the Flex SDK (e.g. Falcon JS with the cross-compiler)
I would hesitate to make that a goal, even a long-term goal. I would prefer to focus the project contributors on strategies I think will be more achievable, but it is my understanding that is up to the project once established.
I see this as a chance to extend the Flex developer base to developers who have not been using ActionScript 3 or Flex until now. The number of cross-compilers targeting JavaScript is long and growing. It's something I'd be interested in working as part of an Apache Flex project. https://github.com/jashkenas/coffee-script/wiki/List-of-languages-that-compile-to-JS
8) Open standards support The whole proposal does not mention open standards, JavaScript, or the buzz word "HTML5". Again, it might make sense to make support of open standards with Adobe Flex a high-level goal.
I'm unclear whether such goals are typically part of these proposals. We've heard from the community that a migration strategy is important, but Adobe has no official recommendation on whether it is cross-compilation, or porting the code to JavaScript and other open standards, or something else and hope to create a project within Apache and use the "Apache Way" to decide.
The reason I mentioned this point is that many developers are not aware of how much Adobe has been contributing to open source in the past years. Not only the the core Adobe open source projects, but a number of companies acquired by Adobe have very strong roots in the open source (Day Software and Nitobi, for example). Flash as a runtime doesn't have the best reputation in the open source world, and shouldn't the support of open standards be in the interest of any ASF project? In the end, the project members will have to decide into which direction they are going to take Flex.
It's exciting to see Adobe's willingness to contribute Flex to the ASF.
Raju Bitter Software Architect & Open Source Evangelist
- Raju
Hi everyone,
I would like to propose Flex to be an Apache Incubator project.
Here's a link to the proposal: http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FlexProposal
Thank you,
Alex Harui Flex SDK Team Adobe Systems, Inc. http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
-- Alex Harui Flex SDK Team Adobe Systems, Inc. http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui