107 messages in org.apache.communityRe: Rules for Revolutionaries
FromSent OnAttachments
Rodent of Unusual Size04 Nov 2002 11:08 
Vadim Gritsenko04 Nov 2002 12:47 
Rodent of Unusual Size04 Nov 2002 13:10 
John Keyes04 Nov 2002 15:25 
Sam Ruby04 Nov 2002 16:33 
Rodent of Unusual Size05 Nov 2002 17:37 
Peter Donald05 Nov 2002 18:25 
Costin Manolache05 Nov 2002 19:33 
Aaron Bannert05 Nov 2002 21:27 
Aaron Bannert05 Nov 2002 21:30 
Ted Husted06 Nov 2002 05:15 
Rodent of Unusual Size06 Nov 2002 18:55 
Daniel Rall06 Nov 2002 22:12 
Sam Ruby07 Nov 2002 03:43 
Rodent of Unusual Size07 Nov 2002 04:11 
Ted Husted07 Nov 2002 04:31 
Stefano Mazzocchi07 Nov 2002 05:33 
Sam Ruby07 Nov 2002 08:01 
Rodent of Unusual Size07 Nov 2002 09:27 
Costin Manolache07 Nov 2002 12:39 
Rich Bowen08 Nov 2002 04:36 
Rodent of Unusual Size08 Nov 2002 09:06 
Sam Ruby08 Nov 2002 13:50 
Costin Manolache08 Nov 2002 14:05 
Rodent of Unusual Size08 Nov 2002 14:46 
Costin Manolache08 Nov 2002 15:11 
Stefano Mazzocchi08 Nov 2002 15:48 
Craig R. McClanahan08 Nov 2002 16:02 
Andrew C. Oliver08 Nov 2002 16:57 
Andrew C. Oliver08 Nov 2002 17:03 
Martin van den Bemt08 Nov 2002 17:14 
Rodent of Unusual Size08 Nov 2002 17:48 
Rodent of Unusual Size08 Nov 2002 17:51 
James Taylor08 Nov 2002 17:56 
Craig R. McClanahan08 Nov 2002 17:58 
Craig R. McClanahan08 Nov 2002 18:05 
Sam Ruby08 Nov 2002 18:17 
Andrew C. Oliver08 Nov 2002 18:38 
Andrew C. Oliver08 Nov 2002 18:40 
Ceki Gülcü09 Nov 2002 00:29 
Jeff Turner09 Nov 2002 02:44 
Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 03:27 
Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 04:13 
Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 04:25 
Andrew C. Oliver09 Nov 2002 04:27 
Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 04:31 
Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 04:35 
Andrew C. Oliver09 Nov 2002 04:36 
Danny Angus09 Nov 2002 04:39 
Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 04:50 
Martin van den Bemt09 Nov 2002 05:21 
Ceki Gülcü09 Nov 2002 06:28 
Costin Manolache09 Nov 2002 08:50 
Sam Ruby09 Nov 2002 09:29 
Costin Manolache09 Nov 2002 10:23 
Ceki Gülcü09 Nov 2002 10:49 
Ceki Gülcü09 Nov 2002 10:58 
Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 12:33 
James Duncan Davidson09 Nov 2002 15:29 
James Duncan Davidson09 Nov 2002 15:37 
Chuck Murcko09 Nov 2002 18:08 
Rodent of Unusual Size10 Nov 2002 05:29 
Ceki Gülcü10 Nov 2002 06:22 
James Duncan Davidson10 Nov 2002 09:14 
Stefano Mazzocchi11 Nov 2002 19:05 
Stephen McConnell11 Nov 2002 19:26 
Sam Ruby11 Nov 2002 19:41 
Jeff Turner11 Nov 2002 19:43 
Stephen McConnell11 Nov 2002 19:43 
Ovidiu Predescu11 Nov 2002 21:34 
Ovidiu Predescu11 Nov 2002 21:36 
Sam Ruby11 Nov 2002 21:51 
Jeff Turner11 Nov 2002 23:18 
Andrew C. Oliver12 Nov 2002 07:18 
Stefano Mazzocchi12 Nov 2002 07:25 
Martin van den Bemt12 Nov 2002 08:19 
Joe Schaefer12 Nov 2002 08:20 
Jeff Turner12 Nov 2002 08:20 
Andrew C. Oliver12 Nov 2002 08:28 
Henri Yandell12 Nov 2002 08:41 
Costin Manolache12 Nov 2002 09:58 
Costin Manolache12 Nov 2002 10:14 
Craig R. McClanahan12 Nov 2002 11:38 
Andrew C. Oliver12 Nov 2002 12:18 
Glenn Nielsen12 Nov 2002 19:05 
Stephen McConnell13 Nov 2002 02:23 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 03:49 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 03:55 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 04:02 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 04:20 
Stephen McConnell13 Nov 2002 04:21 
Stefano Mazzocchi13 Nov 2002 06:44 
Joe Schaefer13 Nov 2002 07:38 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 08:50 
Costin Manolache13 Nov 2002 10:01 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 10:16 
Sam Ruby13 Nov 2002 11:16 
Stefano Mazzocchi13 Nov 2002 11:44 
Costin Manolache13 Nov 2002 12:11 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 17:38 
Roy T. Fielding14 Nov 2002 09:55 
Daniel Rall15 Nov 2002 14:44 
Sam Ruby15 Nov 2002 19:28 
Andrew C. Oliver15 Nov 2002 20:10 
Henri Gomez18 Nov 2002 09:57 
Henri Gomez18 Nov 2002 10:01 
Henri Gomez18 Nov 2002 23:26 
Subject:Re: Rules for Revolutionaries
From:Ceki Gülcü (ce@qos.ch)
Date:11/09/2002 06:28:40 AM
List:org.apache.community

At 12:50 09.11.2002 +0000, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

Ceki Gülcü wrote:

I keep wondering why you keep bringing up Duncan's Whoa Bessie... mail. I mean this one: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=ant-dev&m=97712718421034&w=2 Is it just for historical purposes? Is it because Duncan expresses interesting ideas with eloquence? Sure, Duncan may have been wrong in the Ant context but that should not discredit his ideas altogether. The liberal ideas expressed by Stefano, Sam and to some extent Costin are very inspiring and definitely please a wider audience than Duncan's ideas defending the actions of a selfish pig as he puts hit. (No, I don't think that Duncan is a selfish pig and you shouldn't either.) However, liberal ideologies are just that, ideologies. While Duncan's theory of benevolent dictators might not find favor in the eyes of this public, we should not discard it as being contrary to the Apache way. We should instead recognize it as being a legitimate way of development. It may even be the dominant way of development at Apache under disguise. In addition, it is much easier to stand up and talk about the interest of the community than the interests of individuals less you come off as supporting selfish pigs or being a selfish pig yourself. On a wider scale, it was very hard for the West to fight Communism because the communist ideology sells much better to the unprivileged. Yet 75 years later, the West won, not because of its persuasiveness but because it had much more to show on the store shelves than the communists. Communism is a great idea but it doesn't work. Capitalism is hard to sell but it ends up having better results on the long run. Coming back to Jakarta, I am not suggesting that anyone is at fault. All I am suggesting is that we to stop trashing the work achieved by individuals acting as clear leaders. Leadership is not bad per se. I may be stating the obvious here. So be it.

Duncan made several big mistakes in that situation:

1) he expected to deserve respect, while, in fact, all he deserved was recognition. Respect has to be earned from people that don't know you.

2) the best way to earn respect from someone is to respect him/her first. Bashing is the opposite of this.

3) leadership is vital and a natural inclination of all animal communities (humans included). I would venture to say it's a biological need. Still, leadership is the ultimate respect in a meritocratic community.

I'm considered the leader of the Cocoon project but my rate of commits and email messages is very low compared to many other individuals there. But I managed to earn respect from the community and I managed *never* to impose my views and to value *everybody* expecially those that think I'm wrong or I'm doing a mistake.

Why that? because that's where you really have the chance to learn: by making mistakes and by having someone taking the time to tell you.

Sure, you have to dissipate some ego problems and, to quote myself when I left cocoon the first time, "you are never far enough from your ego to be safe". But I think I managed to build a community of individuals who share my same vision on how to work together sharing this 'love to be wrong so that I can learn' attitude. And *this* is what I'm proud of: any technical issue can be patched. Communities are much harder to patch and you must be much more creative.

Anyway, I still think that a development community is healthy only when it can stand its leader leaving the project.

Think about it.

But I have been thinking about this for a long time! Let me add that I very much admire your attitude. One can only emphatically support your exhortations for modesty, respect for others and level-headed behavior.

Let us just not over do it. Yes, a leader will be wise to leave when he or she becomes a drag. However, there is no glory in leaving a project for the sake of leaving the project. As for your the statement that a community is healthy only when it can survive the departure of its leader, I think it is somewhat misleading. A community is healthy when its participants are having fun, not necessarily when it can provably survive the demise of its leader. Sometimes a community can survive its leader, only to fall apart a while later. The statement "community is healthy only when it can stand its leader leaving" somehow suggests that a community should force the leader to leave in order to check whether the project is healthy or not. That is probably not what you are saying or what you mean, but suggesting that leaders are somehow dispensable strikes me as over doing it. Its hard to replace people.

It's like preaching abstinence to your children only to discover that they are still virgin at 60. Maybe not what you intended as a parent. :-)

This pun introduces the next topic: software darwinism. The principle of the survival of the fittest is a cruel one. Of course its cruelty does not mean that it is wrong. It just does not apply to Jakarta. We must make every effort that it does *not* apply to Jakarta. Let me explain.

Darwin's thesis is that offspring invariably resemble their ancestors although variations can occur between each generation. Some variations may advantage the survival of the individuals showing the variation. Thus those individuals may have more offspring and may eventually form a new species competing with the original species. I am sure every one already knew this. In his book the "Origin of the Species" Darwin insists that the clarification of species is highly correlated with ancestry, not necessarily with an act of God, which was quite a shocking thought at the time. That is perhaps why he waited over 20 years to publish his ideas.

My point is that natural selection applies to a birth death process. We don't have such a process in software. What we have is a series of evolutions. Natural beings do not change their genes during the course of their life. A lion does not say, hey it would be cool to have a long neck like a giraffe, let me grow a neck. We do that in software all the time. We look at a feature or idea in someone else's code and import it into our own.

Software development is not a life and death process. We do not want that anyway. We do not want software to have 5 forks and die two weeks later. We want out software to resist time but also allow it to evolve and to improve. We want sane evolution not a jungle.

To me, Darwinism suggests either painfully slow evolution or just a pointless life and death cycle.

-- Ceki

TCP implementations will follow a general principle of robustness: be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others. -- Jon Postel, RFC 793