107 messages in org.apache.communityRe: Rules for Revolutionaries| From | Sent On | Attachments |
|---|---|---|
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 04 Nov 2002 11:08 | |
| Vadim Gritsenko | 04 Nov 2002 12:47 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 04 Nov 2002 13:10 | |
| John Keyes | 04 Nov 2002 15:25 | |
| Sam Ruby | 04 Nov 2002 16:33 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 05 Nov 2002 17:37 | |
| Peter Donald | 05 Nov 2002 18:25 | |
| Costin Manolache | 05 Nov 2002 19:33 | |
| Aaron Bannert | 05 Nov 2002 21:27 | |
| Aaron Bannert | 05 Nov 2002 21:30 | |
| Ted Husted | 06 Nov 2002 05:15 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 06 Nov 2002 18:55 | |
| Daniel Rall | 06 Nov 2002 22:12 | |
| Sam Ruby | 07 Nov 2002 03:43 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 07 Nov 2002 04:11 | |
| Ted Husted | 07 Nov 2002 04:31 | |
| Stefano Mazzocchi | 07 Nov 2002 05:33 | |
| Sam Ruby | 07 Nov 2002 08:01 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 07 Nov 2002 09:27 | |
| Costin Manolache | 07 Nov 2002 12:39 | |
| Rich Bowen | 08 Nov 2002 04:36 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 08 Nov 2002 09:06 | |
| Sam Ruby | 08 Nov 2002 13:50 | |
| Costin Manolache | 08 Nov 2002 14:05 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 08 Nov 2002 14:46 | |
| Costin Manolache | 08 Nov 2002 15:11 | |
| Stefano Mazzocchi | 08 Nov 2002 15:48 | |
| Craig R. McClanahan | 08 Nov 2002 16:02 | |
| Andrew C. Oliver | 08 Nov 2002 16:57 | |
| Andrew C. Oliver | 08 Nov 2002 17:03 | |
| Martin van den Bemt | 08 Nov 2002 17:14 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 08 Nov 2002 17:48 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 08 Nov 2002 17:51 | |
| James Taylor | 08 Nov 2002 17:56 | |
| Craig R. McClanahan | 08 Nov 2002 17:58 | |
| Craig R. McClanahan | 08 Nov 2002 18:05 | |
| Sam Ruby | 08 Nov 2002 18:17 | |
| Andrew C. Oliver | 08 Nov 2002 18:38 | |
| Andrew C. Oliver | 08 Nov 2002 18:40 | |
| Ceki Gülcü | 09 Nov 2002 00:29 | |
| Jeff Turner | 09 Nov 2002 02:44 | |
| Stefano Mazzocchi | 09 Nov 2002 03:27 | |
| Stefano Mazzocchi | 09 Nov 2002 04:13 | |
| Stefano Mazzocchi | 09 Nov 2002 04:25 | |
| Andrew C. Oliver | 09 Nov 2002 04:27 | |
| Stefano Mazzocchi | 09 Nov 2002 04:31 | |
| Stefano Mazzocchi | 09 Nov 2002 04:35 | |
| Andrew C. Oliver | 09 Nov 2002 04:36 | |
| Danny Angus | 09 Nov 2002 04:39 | |
| Stefano Mazzocchi | 09 Nov 2002 04:50 | |
| Martin van den Bemt | 09 Nov 2002 05:21 | |
| Ceki Gülcü | 09 Nov 2002 06:28 | |
| Costin Manolache | 09 Nov 2002 08:50 | |
| Sam Ruby | 09 Nov 2002 09:29 | |
| Costin Manolache | 09 Nov 2002 10:23 | |
| Ceki Gülcü | 09 Nov 2002 10:49 | |
| Ceki Gülcü | 09 Nov 2002 10:58 | |
| Stefano Mazzocchi | 09 Nov 2002 12:33 | |
| James Duncan Davidson | 09 Nov 2002 15:29 | |
| James Duncan Davidson | 09 Nov 2002 15:37 | |
| Chuck Murcko | 09 Nov 2002 18:08 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 10 Nov 2002 05:29 | |
| Ceki Gülcü | 10 Nov 2002 06:22 | |
| James Duncan Davidson | 10 Nov 2002 09:14 | |
| Stefano Mazzocchi | 11 Nov 2002 19:05 | |
| Stephen McConnell | 11 Nov 2002 19:26 | |
| Sam Ruby | 11 Nov 2002 19:41 | |
| Jeff Turner | 11 Nov 2002 19:43 | |
| Stephen McConnell | 11 Nov 2002 19:43 | |
| Ovidiu Predescu | 11 Nov 2002 21:34 | |
| Ovidiu Predescu | 11 Nov 2002 21:36 | |
| Sam Ruby | 11 Nov 2002 21:51 | |
| Jeff Turner | 11 Nov 2002 23:18 | |
| Andrew C. Oliver | 12 Nov 2002 07:18 | |
| Stefano Mazzocchi | 12 Nov 2002 07:25 | |
| Martin van den Bemt | 12 Nov 2002 08:19 | |
| Joe Schaefer | 12 Nov 2002 08:20 | |
| Jeff Turner | 12 Nov 2002 08:20 | |
| Andrew C. Oliver | 12 Nov 2002 08:28 | |
| Henri Yandell | 12 Nov 2002 08:41 | |
| Costin Manolache | 12 Nov 2002 09:58 | |
| Costin Manolache | 12 Nov 2002 10:14 | |
| Craig R. McClanahan | 12 Nov 2002 11:38 | |
| Andrew C. Oliver | 12 Nov 2002 12:18 | |
| Glenn Nielsen | 12 Nov 2002 19:05 | |
| Stephen McConnell | 13 Nov 2002 02:23 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 13 Nov 2002 03:49 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 13 Nov 2002 03:55 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 13 Nov 2002 04:02 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 13 Nov 2002 04:20 | |
| Stephen McConnell | 13 Nov 2002 04:21 | |
| Stefano Mazzocchi | 13 Nov 2002 06:44 | |
| Joe Schaefer | 13 Nov 2002 07:38 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 13 Nov 2002 08:50 | |
| Costin Manolache | 13 Nov 2002 10:01 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 13 Nov 2002 10:16 | |
| Sam Ruby | 13 Nov 2002 11:16 | |
| Stefano Mazzocchi | 13 Nov 2002 11:44 | |
| Costin Manolache | 13 Nov 2002 12:11 | |
| Rodent of Unusual Size | 13 Nov 2002 17:38 | |
| Roy T. Fielding | 14 Nov 2002 09:55 | |
| Daniel Rall | 15 Nov 2002 14:44 | |
| Sam Ruby | 15 Nov 2002 19:28 | |
| Andrew C. Oliver | 15 Nov 2002 20:10 | |
| Henri Gomez | 18 Nov 2002 09:57 | |
| Henri Gomez | 18 Nov 2002 10:01 | |
| Henri Gomez | 18 Nov 2002 23:26 |
| Subject: | Re: Rules for Revolutionaries |
|---|---|
| From: | Costin Manolache (cos...@covalent.net) |
| Date: | 11/08/2002 02:05:02 PM |
| List: | org.apache.community |
In my personal opinion they are just redundant :-)
The rule that matter is that the community control the code and the name - a majority vote in the community can decide ultimately what happens.
This is a particular case ( again IMO ) of the "releases are majority votes and can't be vetoed".
A side effect of the 'revolution' rules is that a veto can be overriden - nobody can veto a revolution ( or a release ), and if you change the entire code base or a part of it you obviously can make changes that were vetoed.
There are few important consequences:
1. No person ( or group ) can control a codebase by using veto. It is quite easy to find technical reasons against anything.
2. It removes some personal conflicts. A veto or someone blocking an idea can be painful. It's a big difference between a majority voting against a particular idea and one person vetoing it.
3. To take tomcat as an example - it allows diverging groups or opinions to find the common ground. And that's the really great part IMO.
4. Some good ideas that may otherwise be rejected can eventually live.
Costin
On Fri, 2002-11-08 at 13:50, Sam Ruby wrote:
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
my curiousity has been set off again. there have been numerous mentions of the revolution concept as used in jakarta, and its widespread acceptance as policy. however, i don't see it mentioned in the jakarta guidelines; in fact, only in ted's proposal for new guidelines.
is jakarta's semi-formal acceptance of it as an operating principle actually recorded anywhere, or is it actually just an 'everybody knows that' informal general acceptance?
"general acceptance" is probably too strong a word. There are some, including apparently the original author, who now have doubts. But there can be no doubt that this document has strongly influenced the evolution of a number of Jakarta projects.
For further reading, I'd recommend taking a look at topics 3 and 4 in http://jakarta.apache.org/site/pmc/01-01-17-meeting-minutes.html
In my mind, the concepts of vetoes, revolutions, and releases being a majority decision are linked. Note: when Roy made the statement about releases, it sure sounded to me like he was stating it as if it were ASF policy. In any case, I would recommend that it be so.
Taken together, provisions are made for individuals to get attention to be focused on issues that they feel are important, individuals or even small groups can flesh out concepts that may initially be controversial, and a safety valve is provided so that forward progress can still be made.
- Sam Ruby