|Reinhard Pötz||Aug 6, 2008 4:19 am|
|Felix Knecht||Aug 6, 2008 4:28 am|
|Andrew Savory||Aug 6, 2008 4:30 am|
|Daniel Fagerstrom||Aug 6, 2008 4:39 am|
|Thorsten Scherler||Aug 6, 2008 4:54 am|
|Carsten Ziegeler||Aug 6, 2008 4:56 am|
|Jasha Joachimsthal||Aug 6, 2008 6:15 am|
|Peter Hunsberger||Aug 6, 2008 7:30 am|
|Ralph Goers||Aug 6, 2008 7:43 am|
|Joerg Heinicke||Aug 6, 2008 8:09 am|
|Vadim Gritsenko||Aug 7, 2008 5:23 am|
|Bertrand Delacretaz||Aug 8, 2008 7:06 am|
|Alfred Nathaniel||Aug 8, 2008 4:23 pm|
|Reinhard Pötz||Aug 10, 2008 1:15 am|
|Reinhard Pötz||Aug 10, 2008 1:19 am|
|Vadim Gritsenko||Aug 10, 2008 12:08 pm|
|Reinhard Pötz||Aug 10, 2008 1:18 pm|
|Vadim Gritsenko||Aug 10, 2008 3:46 pm|
|Reinhard Pötz||Aug 16, 2008 7:19 am|
|Ralph Goers||Aug 16, 2008 7:32 am|
|Grzegorz Kossakowski||Aug 17, 2008 7:44 am|
|Reinhard Pötz||Aug 17, 2008 8:14 am|
|Sylvain Wallez||Aug 17, 2008 10:41 am|
|Grzegorz Kossakowski||Aug 18, 2008 2:23 am|
|Rainer Pruy||Aug 18, 2008 2:43 am|
|Grzegorz Kossakowski||Aug 18, 2008 3:04 am|
|Jeremy Quinn||Aug 18, 2008 3:42 am|
|Jeremy Quinn||Aug 18, 2008 4:07 am|
|Reinhard Pötz||Aug 18, 2008 4:21 am|
|Sylvain Wallez||Aug 18, 2008 5:12 am|
|Sylvain Wallez||Aug 18, 2008 5:13 am|
|Sylvain Wallez||Aug 18, 2008 5:47 am|
|Grzegorz Kossakowski||Aug 18, 2008 6:22 am|
|Reinhard Pötz||Aug 18, 2008 6:23 am|
|Grzegorz Kossakowski||Aug 18, 2008 6:28 am|
|Reinhard Pötz||Aug 18, 2008 6:29 am|
|Sylvain Wallez||Aug 18, 2008 8:04 am|
|Ralph Goers||Aug 18, 2008 8:21 am|
|Carsten Ziegeler||Aug 18, 2008 8:41 am|
|Jeremy Quinn||Aug 18, 2008 8:56 am|
|Sylvain Wallez||Aug 18, 2008 8:57 am|
|Grzegorz Kossakowski||Aug 19, 2008 4:53 am|
|Jeremy Quinn||Aug 19, 2008 8:03 am|
|Jeremy Quinn||Aug 19, 2008 8:10 am|
|Reinhard Pötz||Aug 20, 2008 5:44 am|
|Peter Hunsberger||Aug 20, 2008 7:32 am|
|Subject:||Re: Renaming Corona to Cocoon 3.0 and infrastructure|
|From:||Grzegorz Kossakowski (gr...@tuffmail.com)|
|Date:||Aug 18, 2008 6:22:41 am|
Sylvain Wallez pisze:
I can't say what problems there are _now_ since I don't build Cocoon anymore. Hopefully it works now, and I was referring to the past: when the move to Maven was started, the 2.2 build was mostly broken for months, which drained an incredible amount of energy away from the project, either because people got discouraged by this broken build (e.g. me), or because they invested their volunteer time in understanding Maven (e.g. Jorg Heymans) rather than developing Cocoon.
I'm glad it seems to work now, but the amount of energy needed to setup and maintain this build system (remember, it's _just_ a build system) has been astronomical.
I've been working with Maven (mainly when working with Cocoon) for more than
year and I can agree on main point of Maven critics that Maven is flawed. My personal opinion is that basic ideas behind Maven are correct but
implementation is totally broken. Or at least it was at the beginning because now, thanks to many eye
balls, it seems to improve from release to release.
I was wondering many times if there is any other choice for us. Given the amount
energy we've put into mavenization process any switch is impossible so such discussion could be
only theoretical. Still I would enjoy reading about some alternatives because this could put my
(and probably others) thinking into right direction thus, eventually improving our existing
There is one statement that I don't agree: Maven is not just a build system. If
it was only a build system I would be the first one to propose dropping Maven completely because of
its implementation. For me, Maven is the whole ecosystem which consists of good practices when it
comes to your project's structure, Maven repository (the killer feature IMHO) and integration
with so many systems acting around basic build process.
What I would prefer is to take a lesson from our past experience but still focus
on the future. I strongly believe that we have reached this stage when people can happily focus
on developing Cocoon and not on developing Cocoon's infrastructure thus I would like to invite all
old-timers to join our forces and provide the best of Cocoon experience ever. I strongly believe we
have all foundations needed for that now.
It's very nice to see people using 2.2, but I have the impression that most of the 2.2-related questions are related to maven-isms, artifacts, poms, etc. Without wanting to sound harsh, I'm wondering whether this community has learned to live over time with some sort of chronic disease, and is so used to it now that it doesn't even realize that life could be easier without it.
Most of these questions come from the confusion about splitting up Cocoon into
smaller pieces. And even more questions come from the fact that people starting with 2.2 are still
trying to build it themselves because that was done in 2.1. If you use released versions then you
will have no problem with dependencies, missing artifacts, etc. When you checkout trunk and try to build it then I would say that it should be
no surprise that sometimes you get into troubles, right?
I would really like to know what kind of chronic disease you see Sylvain. I
don't deny there might be one so if you would have shared your observations with rest community we
could start to think about improving it in the future.
Note that I said "could" and not "would" since ultimately the people-that-do decide what they prefer. And yes I'm a retired old-timer here, but I still care for this community where I learned so much.
For me it would be interesting to see if one of "retired old-timers" could try
to spend some time on playing with trunk just to gather some experience. Certainly, such "external"
audit by some of the most honored members of this community would be a blessing experience only if it
would allow to bring closer our stances.
-- Best regards, Grzegorz Kossakowski