99 messages in net.php.lists.internalsRe: [PHP-DEV] Re: Short syntax for ar...
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Stan Vassilev | FMMay 21, 2008 7:12 pm 
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Stanislav MalyshevMay 21, 2008 8:53 pm 
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Alexey ZakhlestinMay 23, 2008 2:06 am 
Jani TaskinenMay 23, 2008 4:45 am 
Eric ColemanMay 23, 2008 6:43 am 
Yi WangMay 23, 2008 8:17 am 
Sebastian DeutschMay 27, 2008 1:53 pm 
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Stanislav MalyshevMay 27, 2008 4:10 pm 
Jani TaskinenMay 27, 2008 4:14 pm 
Stanislav MalyshevMay 27, 2008 4:18 pm 
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Rasmus LerdorfMay 27, 2008 5:27 pm 
Andrei ZmievskiMay 27, 2008 5:48 pm 
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Greg BeaverMay 27, 2008 7:43 pm 
Philip OlsonMay 27, 2008 8:45 pm 
Stanislav MalyshevMay 27, 2008 11:15 pm 
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Derick RethansMay 27, 2008 11:31 pm 
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Pierre JoyeMay 27, 2008 11:52 pm 
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Hans ÅhlinMay 28, 2008 12:14 am 
Derick RethansMay 28, 2008 12:19 am 
Alexey ZakhlestinMay 28, 2008 12:24 am 
Antony DovgalMay 28, 2008 12:32 am 
Stanislav MalyshevMay 28, 2008 12:33 am 
Antony DovgalMay 28, 2008 12:41 am 
Stanislav MalyshevMay 28, 2008 1:02 am 
Antony DovgalMay 28, 2008 1:14 am 
Stefan WalkMay 28, 2008 1:32 am 
Lukas Kahwe SmithMay 28, 2008 1:43 am 
LokrainMay 28, 2008 1:47 am 
Stan Vassilev | FMMay 28, 2008 2:34 am 
Jon L.May 28, 2008 2:35 am 
David ZülkeMay 28, 2008 2:54 am 
LokrainMay 28, 2008 2:58 am 
Felipe PenaMay 28, 2008 4:27 am 
Ford, MikeMay 28, 2008 4:34 am 
Greg BeaverMay 28, 2008 4:57 am 
Richard QuadlingMay 28, 2008 6:13 am 
Brian MoonMay 28, 2008 8:20 am 
Andi GutmansMay 28, 2008 8:28 am 
Andi GutmansMay 28, 2008 8:28 am 
Chris StocktonMay 28, 2008 8:56 am 
MikeMay 28, 2008 10:10 am 
Jani TaskinenMay 28, 2008 10:25 am 
Chris StocktonMay 28, 2008 10:54 am 
Brian MoonMay 28, 2008 11:06 am 
Jared WilliamsMay 28, 2008 11:30 am 
Gregory BeaverMay 28, 2008 12:11 pm 
Pierre JoyeMay 28, 2008 12:32 pm 
Chris StocktonMay 28, 2008 12:43 pm 
Stanislav MalyshevMay 28, 2008 1:06 pm 
Stanislav MalyshevMay 28, 2008 1:16 pm 
Rasmus LerdorfMay 28, 2008 9:31 pm 
Derick RethansMay 29, 2008 3:56 am 
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Pierre JoyeMay 29, 2008 4:10 am 
Marcus BoergerMay 29, 2008 5:48 am 
Brian MoonMay 29, 2008 7:54 am 
Jonathan Bond-CaronMay 29, 2008 8:02 am 
Sebastian DeutschMay 29, 2008 9:13 am 
Johannes SchlüterMay 29, 2008 11:55 am 
Johannes SchlüterMay 29, 2008 12:05 pm 
Chris StocktonMay 29, 2008 1:32 pm 
Johannes SchlüterMay 29, 2008 2:44 pm 
Jani TaskinenMay 29, 2008 3:06 pm 
Stanislav MalyshevMay 29, 2008 4:03 pm 
Lester CaineMay 30, 2008 12:04 am 
Pierre JoyeMay 30, 2008 2:00 am 
Sebastian DeutschMay 30, 2008 8:19 am 
Philip OlsonMay 30, 2008 9:14 am 
Sebastian DeutschMay 30, 2008 9:23 am 
Lars StrojnyMay 31, 2008 5:27 am 
Hans ÅhlinMay 31, 2008 6:17 am 
Hans ÅhlinMay 31, 2008 6:26 am 
Hans ÅhlinMay 31, 2008 6:38 am 
Chris StocktonMay 31, 2008 8:42 am 
Sebastian DeutschMay 31, 2008 8:42 am 
Lars StrojnyMay 31, 2008 9:33 am 
Stanislav MalyshevMay 31, 2008 10:45 pm 
Marcin KurzynaJun 1, 2008 5:23 am 
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Subject:Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Short syntax for array literals [...]Actions...
From:Chris Stockton (chri@gmail.com)
Date:May 28, 2008 10:54:33 am
List:net.php.lists.internals

Hello,

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Jani Taskinen <jani@sci.fi> wrote:

Exactly. Open this can of worms and soon PHP is something else than easy to learn.. someone already mentioned that {} thing for objects.. :)

Sidenote: There are more important things to solve in PHP 5.3 (and especially HEAD) than adding this little syntax sugar..

--Jani

It's not syntax sugar, it's a construct which is used across many other languages. It will improve the language for other people and might help people to learn PHP. If we have resource issues commiting one line of grammar the project has other issues to deal with.

Mike wrote:

In my opinion I don't think PHP would be where it is today if it wasn't for being so easy to learn and use.

I attribute this directly to the fact that it didn't use a lot of "syntax sugar" that is unreadable and can't be "Googled" for. You can't Google "[]", and my guess is searching PHP.net for "[]" won't return anything useful either. Using Array() is SELF EXPLANATORY! Anyone can see that, search Google for "Array" and learn something about it. How many man hours are going to be wasted: 1. Searching for what the heck [] actually is.

Anyone who has gotten to a level of knowing how to assign php variables will likely have any troubles understanding what: $config = ['smtpHost' => 'example.org']; $oSmtp = someSmtpTransport($config['smtpHost']);

Is doing, and if you have a super complex multi-dimensional array, regardless of brackets or array syntax it will be hard to understand by a php new comer.

2. Explaining to people that [] is the same as Array.

$foo = Array('foo' => 'bar');

var_dump($foo); $foo = ['foo' => 'bar']; var_dump($foo);

Explained.

3. Changing coding standards for projects to prevent [] from being used.

4. Enforcing coding standards for projects to prevent [] from being

used.

$str = "$var {$foo} " . $bar . " $see " . ' tconst ' . $not . ' $parsed ';

We already face issues with more then one way to do things, we deal with it and it has not proven to be to difficult.

5. Trying to change [] back to Array in hopes of getting code to work on older versions of PHP.

If your projects target versions are older versions then create backwards

compatible code just like you do with PHP4 classes and PHP5 classes.

6. All the man hours wasted on it ALREADY that I'm sure could be much better spent getting PHP 5.3/6.0 out.

The discussion is the wasted time, not the code or implementation.

There are enough roadblocks and other things to worry about already, why would we want to add MORE? Especially for something with so little to gain (if anything at all).

Gain to whom? Remember, their is an entire community of developers out

their besides the people on this list who are accustomed to such use for arrays. Also, a community of developers who would like an alternative syntax to array to clean up their code a little, like me.

This isn't about "well if you don't like it, don't use it" either, because no matter what it will be forced on people who don't like it eventually. People who like it will be constantly changing Array() -> [] and people who hate it will be constantly changing [] -> Array(). More wasted time.

Just like string literals $str = 'foo'; and $str = "foo";

class Foo { public $bar; public $baz; public $qux;

VS

class Foo { public $bar, $baz, $qux;

$obj = new Stdclass; $obj = (object) NULL;

Really guys my only point is that we should not disregard a proposal for the sake of having more then one way to do something. That is the beauty of PHP and any successful language, it appeals to a wide variety of coding standards, methodologies and paradigms. If you just think about it you can name tons of things in PHP that let you do the same thing with two syntax's. This is part of php's success. Some things are easier for people to learn then they are for others.

-Chris