|David Hull||Nov 22, 2004 1:48 pm|
|Steve Graham||Nov 23, 2004 12:52 pm|
|David Hull||Nov 23, 2004 1:42 pm|
|Patil, Sanjay||Nov 23, 2004 2:12 pm|
|Samuel Meder||Nov 29, 2004 5:17 am|
|David Hull||Nov 29, 2004 8:35 am|
|Samuel Meder||Nov 30, 2004 10:10 am|
|David Hull||Nov 30, 2004 10:37 am|
|Samuel Meder||Nov 30, 2004 11:17 am|
|David Hull||Nov 30, 2004 11:28 am|
|David Hull||Nov 30, 2004 1:15 pm|
|Samuel Meder||Nov 30, 2004 1:53 pm|
|David Hull||Dec 1, 2004 9:58 am|
|Lily Liu||Dec 3, 2004 12:11 pm|
|Martin Chapman||Dec 3, 2004 12:27 pm|
|Peter Niblett||Dec 6, 2004 7:14 am|
|chri...@bt.com||Dec 6, 2004 7:52 am|
|David Hull||Dec 6, 2004 8:10 am|
|David Hull||Dec 6, 2004 8:23 am|
|Samuel Meder||Dec 6, 2004 9:29 am|
|Subject:||Re: [wsn] Subscribe and GetCurrentMessage|
|From:||David Hull (dm...@tibco.com)|
|Date:||Nov 30, 2004 11:28:04 am|
How does the consumer tell the difference between * Snapshot arrived ahead of first update. * There is no first update because there's no traffic. Samuel Meder wrote:
On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 13:37 -0500, David Hull wrote:
Samuel Meder wrote:
On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 11:35 -0500, David Hull wrote:
Could you work through in detail how this would happen?
I believe we're up against an egg-unscrambling problem here. On the one hand, there will be cases when the NP knows exactly which updates came after which snapshot. A common case would be an NP which locks the database for updates during a snapshot. It will be able to tell which updates came in before the lock and which came after. It can therefore easily send the snapshot to the consumer, followed by exactly the right updates.
Here are the problems I see under the current setup: * There is no way to get a snapshot, per se. If the updates are incremental, which they may legitimately be, then "last message" and "current state" are two different things. If I understand your proposal, you're saying that there could be parallel sets of "current state" and "update" topics. Fair enough. * The result of getCurrentMessage goes to the subscriber, not to the consumer. The behavior we want is for the consumer to get the snapshot followed by (all and only) the relevant updates. Under the current setup, either the subscriber would have to forward the result to the subscriber, or the consumer would have to make the getCurrentMessage call directly (perhaps having learned the NPs address from a previous update, assuming one has come in).
As far as I can tell there are multiple ways of doing this:
1) Make use of the WS-Addressing Reply-To feature to redirect the result of a getCurrentMessage to the consumer
This does not eliminate the race condition. At the very least, both update and snapshot must be sequence numbered, the consumer must be prepared to queue updates until the snapshot arrives, and the consumer does not know for sure that the snapshot is valid with respect to the updates until the first update arrives.
In short, the subscriber and consumer have to collaborate to recover information that the NP knows, but cannot give out directly under the current protocol.
2) As you mention, the consumer could obtain the NP address via some (out-of-band?) means
This only solves part of the problem.
The comparison is between: * Subscriber tells NP: Send this consumer a snapshot of the current state we're interested in, followed by all and only those updates after the snapshot. We're done. and multi-part solutions in which the Subscriber and Consumer must cooperate to figure out which updates to discard and to verify that the whole process worked correctly at all. There is a qualitative difference between these two approaches.
With all due respect, I have not yet heard from anyone a detailed and provably correct procedure for eliminating this race condition, using any combination of the existing BaseN primitives and any composable mechanism for transactionality or such. I hear "you could do it with . . .", but I don't hear how you could do it. I believe I have given detailed reasons why such a solution probably doesn't exist. Even if it did exist, it would suffer from too many connections between too many moving parts.
Maybe I'm just not seeing the problem. Assume both the snapshots and the updates contain a related sequence number, what I mean by that is that the sequence number for the latest snapshot is equal to the sequence number in the latest update. This also assumes that snapshots are always up to date with respect to updates.
Where is the race condition in the following sequence:
1) subscriber subscribes consumer to update topic 2) subscriber does a getCurrentMessage with a redirect to consumer (for example, any other methods for getting the current state to the consumer should work).
The consumer should buffer any updates until it gets the current state and can then discard any updates with sequence numbers < sequence number in current state.
It's quite possible that I will soon have a embarrassing a-ha experience, but I currently don't see anything racy in that.
What we need is a way to just ask the NP for what we want up front. One way would be to bake "snapshot" and "update" modifiers directly into the Subscribe request, but this is not the only way.
3) You could make the semantics of the "current state" topic such that a subscription to it will trigger a single notification of the current state (ok, I admit that this is really stretching it).
That would provide for a snapshot (as opposed to current message as such). It doesn't solve the race condition directly, but a variant would. We could always allow for modifiers in the topic expression. That is, you could subscribe to "Foo", or to "Foo(snapshot)" or to "Foo(snapshot-and-updates)". If we go that way, we should consider having the modifiers be an explicit part of the topic expression, and not baked into topic names in some arbitrary way.
Another option would be to put snapshot/update modifiers in the "subscribe policy" open content.
Right, as a sort of QoS qualifier for the subscription. That would make sense to me as well.
In all three cases, the NP should be able to advertise what it supports, and MUST fault on a request for something it doesn't support.
As long as all the
* It is decidedly non-trivial to handle races between the snapshot and the update stream. At the minimum, both need to be tagged with timestamps (or better, sequence numbers). But even this doesn't seem sufficient, particularly since I don't know whether the snapshot is in sync with the updates until I actually get an update, which could be arbitrarily long.
One way to deal with this is to subscribe for updates and then get the snapshot (I am assuming that the snapshot kept by the NP is always up to date wrt to updates, otherwise this whole thing would not be workable unless you had some way to pull past updates as well).
In short, we need a way of explicitly associating the snapshot request with the request for updates and making sure they both go to the same endpoint, in the right order. We would like to do this in a way that requires no processing by the consumer. One of the key features of WSN is that consumers can be dumb. The consumer should not have to buffer updates and check sequence numbers.
I think that consumers at some level (and this may be at the framework level) will have to worry about sequencing in any scenario that involves updates and asynchronous messaging.
It should not have to make the update subscription itself. And, as far as I can tell, there is no need for it to do so, at least in the plausible case that the NP already knows how to provide exactly the right information.
Samuel Meder wrote:
Another way of doing this that does not require WSRF-RP is to model your topics in a way that allows for this: A top level topic for the whole document (which you can call getCurrentMessage() on) and sub-topic for fields in the document (which you would subscribe to), or even just a single "update" sub-topic. That in combination with appropriate use of timestamps should be able to address your problem.
On Tue, 2004-11-23 at 16:43 -0500, David Hull wrote:
Steve Graham wrote:
David Hull <dm...@tibco.com> wrote on 11/22/2004 04:48:34 PM:
One useful pub/sub paradigm involves the concept of notifications
as updates to
some collection of state.
Indeed, this is what WSRF-Resource Properties suggests.
In such cases, it is useful to be able to take a snapshot of the state, then be notified of updates to that state.
Agreed. GetResourcePropertyDocument, followed by a subscribe operation specifying which Resource properties (bits of state) the consumer should receive value change notifications.
Minus whatever changes happened between the get and the subscribe. Or plus whatever changes happened between the subscribe and the get. In any case, we want to be able to cover snapshot/update scenarios where the state is not presented as a WS-Resource. Or at least I would like that.