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69 messages in org.codehaus.groovy.devRe: [groovy-dev] Building Groovy| From | Sent On | Attachments |
|---|---|---|
| Russel Winder | Oct 6, 2008 4:36 am | |
| Mingfai | Oct 6, 2008 4:47 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 6, 2008 4:50 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 6, 2008 4:55 am | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 6, 2008 4:56 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 6, 2008 7:17 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 6, 2008 7:51 am | |
| Russel Winder | Oct 6, 2008 7:59 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 6, 2008 8:19 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 6, 2008 8:25 am | |
| Mingfai | Oct 6, 2008 8:28 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 6, 2008 8:36 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 6, 2008 1:46 pm | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 6, 2008 1:54 pm | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 6, 2008 1:54 pm | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 6, 2008 2:03 pm | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 6, 2008 2:09 pm | |
| Paul Duffy | Oct 6, 2008 7:06 pm | |
| Luke Daley | Oct 6, 2008 8:47 pm | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 6, 2008 9:44 pm | |
| Russel Winder | Oct 6, 2008 11:25 pm | |
| Russel Winder | Oct 6, 2008 11:54 pm | |
| Russel Winder | Oct 7, 2008 12:03 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 12:23 am | |
| Russel Winder | Oct 7, 2008 12:24 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 7, 2008 12:30 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 7, 2008 12:35 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 12:35 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 7, 2008 12:36 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 12:41 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 7, 2008 12:54 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 1:40 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 7, 2008 1:50 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 1:55 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 7, 2008 2:25 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 7, 2008 2:35 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 3:09 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 7, 2008 3:12 am | |
| Russel Winder | Oct 7, 2008 3:17 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 3:24 am | |
| Paul King | Oct 7, 2008 4:04 am | |
| ma...@dockter.biz | Oct 7, 2008 4:19 am | |
| ma...@dockter.biz | Oct 7, 2008 4:25 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 4:36 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 4:39 am | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 7, 2008 5:20 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 8:19 am | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 7, 2008 9:51 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 10:49 am | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 7, 2008 12:03 pm | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 7, 2008 2:34 pm | |
| Luke Daley | Oct 7, 2008 3:52 pm | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 8, 2008 1:28 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 8, 2008 1:35 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 8, 2008 3:11 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 8, 2008 3:49 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 8, 2008 4:30 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 8, 2008 4:40 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 8, 2008 4:52 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 8, 2008 5:21 am | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 8, 2008 6:23 am | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 8, 2008 6:47 am | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 8, 2008 6:59 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 8, 2008 8:33 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 8, 2008 8:43 am | |
| Paul Duffy | Oct 9, 2008 8:58 am | |
| Paul King | Oct 9, 2008 1:15 pm | |
| Danno Ferrin | Oct 9, 2008 1:27 pm | |
| Paul King | Oct 10, 2008 2:31 am |

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| Subject: | Re: [groovy-dev] Building Groovy | Actions... |
|---|---|---|
| From: | ma...@dockter.biz (ma...@dockter.biz) | |
| Date: | Oct 7, 2008 4:25:22 am | |
| List: | org.codehaus.groovy.dev | |
Hi Jason,
for _every_ claim I made in this mail I can and will provide an example. I'm at a customer right now, so I don't have the time to provide this now. Expect a detailed reply this evening or tomorrow.
Cheers,
Hans
On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:55:54 +0700, "Jason Dillon" <jaso...@gmail.com> said:
On Oct 7, 2008, at 2:36 PM, Hans Dockter wrote:
I don't know Guillaume if you ever had to create and maintain a Maven 2 build. I was the build master for two very complex Maven 2 enterprise builds and I can only warn anybody of using this tool. Rather stick with Ant.
I'd say the exact opposite of course. Doesn't make Ant or Maven2 (or anything else) better just because a statement like this is made. IMO its meaningless. It all depends on the person(s) working on the build(s), their knowledge of the tool.
Kudos for Maven for introducing the concept of build-by-convention long before it was made popular by rails-like frameworks. If it wouldn't have been for Jelly, the Maven people might have sticked with their Maven 1 approach which I definitely prefer to what they provide with Maven2.
Um, I don't think so... Jelly wasn't really the problem with Maven1, it was its entire concept of what a plugin is, how you configure plugins and how they get executed. Jelly just didn't help the problem at all.
- It has the same problem as Ant regarding the anemic interaction with Java/Groovy (Maven considers this as a feature). The GMaven plugin does not make a difference here. You can't use Groovy to choreograph the build.
GMaven is not intended to choreograph anything, the dancing bits are already handled by the Maven reactor. GMaven just puts a little move groove into the dance.
- Maven enforces an often bizarre level of indirection (has anybody ever used the Maven constraint plugin to express the most simple custom constraint). Maven's verbosity is extreme.
"Maven constraint plugin"? What is that?
- Maven's dependency management is far inferior to Ivy.
Pudding please?
- Maven also introduces its own general purpose elements which are not necessarily implemented well (e.g. pom inheritance). (Have you ever tried to use a single property as a version value for all subprojects in a slightly complex multi-project build)
Yes I have.
- Maven is not based on dependency based programming. What it offers instead to hook in actions is significantly more inflexible.
I assume you mean phases instead of actions? You know that the lifecycle phases for a build are completely configurable? And that goal execution can depend on other goal executions right (via the @execute annotation)?
- Its multi-project build features are inferior to what Gradle offers. For example: -- You can't do partial builds. In Gradle you can build a subproject in a way that all the project it depends on are rebuild as well. In Maven you always have to trigger the complete build (and if this takes some time you have to watch the console to push Ctrl-C when the stuff you want to have rebuild is done).
This is not exactly true. First you can always create profiles to control the set of modules which will be built. Second you can use the maven-reactor-plugin to get even more control over how things build:
http://maven.apache.org/plugins/maven-reactor-plugin/
-- Maven has not a distinct configuration and runtime dependencies between projects. For example if you want to configure the common stuff of a set of subprojects in a parent pom, this parent pom needs always to be build before the subprojects. Therefore you can't use this parent pom for example for creating an ueberarchive from the subprojects. You have to refactor the commons stuff in an artifical subproject with a pom the other subprojects inherit from. Such things makes Maven builds so hard to maintain and comprehend.
Can't disagree with you here, this is a problem. There are some workarounds, but the real solution of configuration mixins has yet to be implemented.
The biggest problem Maven has, is a conceptual one though. Erich Gamme has coined the phrase Frameworkitis for this kind of problems. He gave the following definition:
"Frameworkitis is the disease that a framework wants to do too much for you or it does it in a way that you don't want but you can't change it. It's fun to get all this functionality for free, but it hurts when the free functionality gets in the way. But you are now tied into the framework. To get the desired behavior you start to fight against the framework. And at this point you often start to lose, because it's difficult to bend the framework in a direction it didn't anticipate. Toolkits do not attempt to take control for you and they therefore do not suffer from frameworkitis."
Pudding please? I know of a lot of stuff that lives inside of Maven, not happy with some of it sure, but if you are going to make a statement like this it would really help your point if you at least listed some of the frameworks and why you think they are a sickness ;-)
--jason
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