107 messages in org.apache.communityRE: DOH! Re: Rules for Revolutionaries
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Rodent of Unusual Size04 Nov 2002 11:08 
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Stefano Mazzocchi08 Nov 2002 15:48 
Craig R. McClanahan08 Nov 2002 16:02 
Andrew C. Oliver08 Nov 2002 16:57 
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Martin van den Bemt08 Nov 2002 17:14 
Rodent of Unusual Size08 Nov 2002 17:48 
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Andrew C. Oliver08 Nov 2002 18:38 
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Danny Angus09 Nov 2002 04:39 
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Martin van den Bemt09 Nov 2002 05:21 
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Jeff Turner12 Nov 2002 08:20 
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Henri Yandell12 Nov 2002 08:41 
Costin Manolache12 Nov 2002 09:58 
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Craig R. McClanahan12 Nov 2002 11:38 
Andrew C. Oliver12 Nov 2002 12:18 
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Sam Ruby13 Nov 2002 11:16 
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Roy T. Fielding14 Nov 2002 09:55 
Daniel Rall15 Nov 2002 14:44 
Sam Ruby15 Nov 2002 19:28 
Andrew C. Oliver15 Nov 2002 20:10 
Henri Gomez18 Nov 2002 09:57 
Henri Gomez18 Nov 2002 10:01 
Henri Gomez18 Nov 2002 23:26 
Subject:RE: DOH! Re: Rules for Revolutionaries
From:Martin van den Bemt (mar@mvdb.net)
Date:11/08/2002 05:14:16 PM
List:org.apache.community

Tip: Start, run, notepad <enter> Copy & Paste from the mail Type Save it Sleep on it make the real reply.

;)

If you reply to me, just make the reply :). I like sarcasme and I don't have to read between the lines to figure out what the hell you really meant..

Mvgr, Martin

-----Original Message----- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acol@apache.org] Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 02:03 To: comm@apache.org Subject: DOH! Re: Rules for Revolutionaries

Well this makes my second mail faux pax this week. I actually didn't mean to send this. I sometimes type a mail and then discard it or send it to my self.. U/F in mozilla mail (which I'm not accustomed to) send is right below the file menu and I missed. (new laptop). My sincere appologies to Craig and the rest of y'all. I meant to send a way less snide/sarcastic version of this...

A slightly more formal way to do this would be to explicitly canonicalize "Apache Way" policies like this at the apache.org level, and these automatically become the default policies for any Apache project unless that project deliberately (perhaps within some limits TBD) chooses to operate differently. The requirement for following these (or specializing them) would be an explicit part of a new project's charter.

yes. Canons are way more efficient than trust and community building. I mean a tight nit group of people whom respect each other and want to work together is NO match for a group of people who don't respect each other and barely want to work together with a set of canon laws. (or should their be three n's in that)

Essentially, this would be a generlization of the way Jakarta projects deal with coding style conventions -- there's a default (from the original Sun coding standards) that is the assumed standard unless a different choice is explicitly made and documented for a particular subproject.

Yes, bracket placement is the most important issue in a community. If you don't use K&R style bracketing I just can't read your code and the project is a total wash. ;-) Fortunately Eclipse lets me reformat it going in and reformat it going out.

The same principle can be applied recursively -- instead of subclasses formally inheriting methods and instance variables (with the option to override), projects and subprojects formally inherit culture and standards unless they explicitly choose to override :-).

Yes "standards" have worked so nicely in the software industry. Why we have several standards for any one thing. Its certainly better than mutual respect.. For as long as one follows one of the standards, it must be good.

I'd bet many people perceive that Apache actually works this way; let's just make that perception into reality.

In order to do this, lets set at least 6 months aside each to draft a large legal document, assign penalties for breaking any of the rules. We'll create a new subproject for "Those who have not joined the shining path to enlightenment" for projects choosing not to ratify the canon. Next we can create a "interperator" subproject, in the event of a disagreement among parties in a project the interperator (think of them as lawyers) can be assigned to help interperate the canon and apply penalities to whomever is judged to be in the wrong. The alternative is to get back the the basics...community, mutual respect, dare I say friendship, working for the best ideas, etc. Rigid guidelines are much easier than that. Thats why XP is such crap, a "metaphor" instead of a BUFD. Same prinicipal. Long live the SDLC!

Craig