atom feed192 messages in org.freebsd.freebsd-archRe: FreeBSD problems and preliminary ...
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Vadim GoncharovAug 17, 2011 4:09 pm 
Baptiste DaroussinAug 18, 2011 12:49 am 
Robert WatsonAug 18, 2011 8:41 am 
Maxim IgnatenkoAug 18, 2011 11:09 am 
Lev SerebryakovAug 18, 2011 12:49 pm 
Lev SerebryakovAug 18, 2011 2:23 pm 
Vadim GoncharovAug 18, 2011 2:45 pm 
Hans Petter SelaskyAug 18, 2011 2:45 pm 
Vadim GoncharovAug 18, 2011 2:59 pm 
Vadim GoncharovAug 18, 2011 3:17 pm 
Julian ElischerAug 18, 2011 7:53 pm 
Michael V. BuzuverovAug 18, 2011 8:48 pm 
Lars EngelsAug 18, 2011 10:55 pm 
Lars EngelsAug 19, 2011 12:37 am 
Robert WatsonAug 19, 2011 1:23 am 
Lev SerebryakovAug 19, 2011 1:36 am 
Robert WatsonAug 19, 2011 1:41 am 
Lev SerebryakovAug 19, 2011 1:49 am 
Robert WatsonAug 19, 2011 1:55 am 
Slawa OlhovchenkovAug 19, 2011 2:05 am 
Lev SerebryakovAug 19, 2011 2:05 am 
Adrian ChaddAug 19, 2011 2:05 am 
Slawa OlhovchenkovAug 19, 2011 2:22 am 
Lev SerebryakovAug 19, 2011 2:25 am 
Lev SerebryakovAug 19, 2011 2:27 am 
Robert N. M. WatsonAug 19, 2011 2:36 am 
Slawa OlhovchenkovAug 19, 2011 2:36 am 
Robert N. M. WatsonAug 19, 2011 2:37 am 
Slawa OlhovchenkovAug 19, 2011 2:50 am 
Bob BishopAug 19, 2011 2:51 am 
Pieter de GoejeAug 19, 2011 5:01 am 
Kris MooreAug 19, 2011 5:20 am 
Lev SerebryakovAug 19, 2011 6:52 am 
Adrian ChaddAug 19, 2011 8:26 am 
Gary PalmerAug 19, 2011 10:22 am 
Robert WatsonAug 19, 2011 11:49 am 
Nathan WhitehornAug 19, 2011 1:17 pm 
Pedro F. GiffuniAug 19, 2011 1:29 pm 
Gary PalmerAug 19, 2011 1:30 pm 
Kostik BelousovAug 19, 2011 2:26 pm 
Rick MacklemAug 19, 2011 3:38 pm 
Robert WatsonAug 19, 2011 3:57 pm 
Pedro F. GiffuniAug 19, 2011 5:57 pm 
Lev SerebryakovAug 19, 2011 11:14 pm 
Robert WatsonAug 20, 2011 4:37 am 
Luigi RizzoAug 20, 2011 6:42 am 
Poul-Henning KampAug 20, 2011 7:10 am 
Robert N. M. WatsonAug 20, 2011 7:21 am 
Lev SerebryakovAug 20, 2011 2:09 pm 
Luigi RizzoAug 20, 2011 2:36 pm 
Peter JeremyAug 21, 2011 4:04 am 
Slawa OlhovchenkovAug 21, 2011 6:51 am 
Marcin WisnickiAug 22, 2011 10:04 am 
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selvenAug 22, 2011 11:06 pm 
Adrian ChaddAug 22, 2011 11:49 pm 
Garrett CooperAug 22, 2011 11:54 pm 
Diane BruceAug 23, 2011 7:01 pm 
Vadim GoncharovAug 24, 2011 3:08 pm 
Vadim GoncharovAug 24, 2011 3:15 pm 
Vadim GoncharovAug 24, 2011 3:20 pm 
Vadim GoncharovAug 24, 2011 3:29 pm 
Milo HysonAug 24, 2011 7:42 pm 
gnuy...@gmail.comAug 24, 2011 8:33 pm 
Alex GoncharovAug 24, 2011 8:47 pm 
127 later messages
Subject:Re: FreeBSD problems and preliminary ways to solve
From:Robert Watson (rwat@FreeBSD.org)
Date:Aug 19, 2011 1:23:23 am
List:org.freebsd.freebsd-arch

On Thu, 18 Aug 2011, Vadim Goncharov wrote:

everything is ``suitable'' for common tasks. And it is NOT ENOUGH to be technically better. System should be far more superior to be chosen, if it is not fancy/trendy. Yes, I belive, that FreeBSD is better than Linux (at least on supported hardware) in server tasks, more clear, more solid, etc. But it is ``only'' better, and is not enough.

No. The whole message was about that FreeBSD is worse in several areas, which masks out areas where it is better. If that will get fixed, we could talk about is it needing to be "far more" superior or not. But not before that as excuse to do nothing - no such excuse exists.

I'd point out that the key thing here is to produce, distribute, and as you rightly point out *make easy*, new technologies that are transformative in a way that makes FreeBSD compelling. So compelling that you'd rather switch OS than not have it.

It's worth observing that the success of Linux (and FreeBSD) to date comes out of a few very basic but fundamental improvements in OS design:

- Tightly integrated networking - Much cheaper than any competition - Extremely stable compared to the competition

It's clear that Windows has long since caught up in the server world with respect to these in every practical sense (not an invitation for discussion -- we could talk for days) in that it is now a viable server solution in all of the above senses. Which isn't to say that my multi-year uptimes for FreeBSD don't beat the competition, but it's clear FreeBSD/Linux no longer give you orders of magnitude more uptime between crashes. I think people are also now much more aware of the TCO issue with operating systems, and understand that although open source is often better, and therefore cheaper, the lack of a license fee isn't the biggest issue in cost. However, I think the lesson is clear: compelling features required (including things like cost and stability).

My own interests are largely in security, and this is what we're trying to do with Capsicum: make it possible to sandbox applications in a way that simply has never been done before, giving security that has never been had before. This required a new solution (although if you read our USENIX Security or forthcoming CACM paper, it is grounded in some quite old but promising ideas) that you can't find anywhere else.

It will take several years for Capsicum to meet this promise, but the first parts arrive in FreeBSD 9.0. FreeBSD 9.1 is where it should get really exciting -- even (and especially) tools like tcpdump will run automatically and easily in sandboxes, something that just isn't plausibe with other existing sandboxing technologies. Obviously, we hope that the rest of the world will adopt our APIs (and have spotted the OpenBSD folk working on this already, and there's a Linux port out of Google), but I hope for a bit of a run where you have to come to us to get this! And being the place APIs and ideas like this come from is important.

There are lots of other exciting things in 9.x, and we need to make sure we promote them well. I'd point out that this is an area where we also need to do a lot of work. There was a lot of buzz around the release of FreeBSD 8 when Kris was running regular competitive SMP benchmarks and showing us walking all over the competition. Buzz is a critical part of selling ideas in open source (for better or worse), and there's no reason we can't play in that game a bit while maintaining our boring and staid personalities :-).

Robert