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83 messages in org.w3.www-tagRE: FW: draft findings on Unsafe Meth...| From | Sent On | Attachments |
|---|---|---|
| Dan Connolly | Apr 15, 2002 8:50 am | |
| Larry Masinter | Apr 15, 2002 1:44 pm | |
| David Orchard | Apr 15, 2002 3:01 pm | |
| David Orchard | Apr 15, 2002 3:19 pm | |
| Mark Baker | Apr 15, 2002 8:00 pm | |
| Keith Moore | Apr 15, 2002 8:37 pm | |
| Scott Cantor | Apr 15, 2002 9:28 pm | |
| Edwin Khodabakchian | Apr 15, 2002 9:34 pm | |
| David Orchard | Apr 15, 2002 10:18 pm | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 15, 2002 11:17 pm | |
| Tim Bray | Apr 15, 2002 11:32 pm | |
| Mark Nottingham | Apr 16, 2002 1:01 am | |
| Tim Bray | Apr 16, 2002 1:02 am | |
| Mark Nottingham | Apr 16, 2002 1:09 am | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 16, 2002 2:11 am | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 16, 2002 3:02 am | |
| Mark Baker | Apr 16, 2002 4:54 am | |
| Williams, Stuart | Apr 16, 2002 8:22 am | |
| Keith Moore | Apr 16, 2002 8:32 am | |
| jon...@research.att.com | Apr 16, 2002 8:44 am | |
| Scott Cantor | Apr 16, 2002 8:55 am | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 16, 2002 9:40 am | |
| Mark Nottingham | Apr 16, 2002 9:42 am | |
| Hutchison, Nigel | Apr 16, 2002 9:43 am | |
| Henrik Frystyk Nielsen | Apr 16, 2002 10:48 am | |
| Bullard, Claude L (Len) | Apr 16, 2002 1:46 pm | |
| Larry Masinter | Apr 16, 2002 6:39 pm | |
| Roy T. Fielding | Apr 16, 2002 7:54 pm | |
| Larry Masinter | Apr 16, 2002 10:10 pm | |
| Graham Klyne | Apr 17, 2002 1:54 am | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 18, 2002 12:33 am | |
| Graham Klyne | Apr 18, 2002 9:11 am | |
| Alex Rousskov | Apr 18, 2002 9:30 am | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 18, 2002 9:45 am | |
| Graham Klyne | Apr 18, 2002 11:58 am | |
| Roy T. Fielding | Apr 18, 2002 3:11 pm | |
| Don Box | Apr 18, 2002 6:28 pm | |
| Mark Baker | Apr 18, 2002 8:50 pm | |
| Keith Moore | Apr 18, 2002 8:54 pm | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 18, 2002 10:00 pm | |
| Graham Klyne | Apr 19, 2002 12:53 am | |
| Bill de hÓra | Apr 19, 2002 4:18 am | |
| Roy T. Fielding | Apr 19, 2002 1:20 pm | |
| Anne Thomas Manes | Apr 22, 2002 3:23 pm | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 22, 2002 4:01 pm | |
| Anne Thomas Manes | Apr 22, 2002 8:17 pm | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 22, 2002 10:21 pm | |
| Anne Thomas Manes | Apr 23, 2002 5:36 am | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 23, 2002 12:03 pm | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 23, 2002 2:09 pm | |
| Roy T. Fielding | Apr 23, 2002 2:14 pm | |
| Bullard, Claude L (Len) | Apr 23, 2002 2:50 pm | |
| Joshua Allen | Apr 23, 2002 2:53 pm | |
| David Orchard | Apr 23, 2002 4:14 pm | |
| Keith Moore | Apr 23, 2002 5:05 pm | |
| Roy T. Fielding | Apr 23, 2002 5:14 pm | |
| Simon St.Laurent | Apr 23, 2002 5:18 pm | |
| Larry Masinter | Apr 23, 2002 6:31 pm | |
| Mark Baker | Apr 23, 2002 6:36 pm | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 23, 2002 8:03 pm | |
| Tim Bray | Apr 23, 2002 8:30 pm | |
| Dan Connolly | Apr 23, 2002 9:05 pm | |
| Joshua Allen | Apr 23, 2002 9:10 pm | |
| Anne Thomas Manes | Apr 23, 2002 9:28 pm | |
| Mark Nottingham | Apr 23, 2002 9:42 pm | |
| Jeff Bone | Apr 23, 2002 9:42 pm | |
| Joshua Allen | Apr 23, 2002 10:02 pm | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 23, 2002 10:05 pm | |
| Joshua Allen | Apr 23, 2002 10:27 pm | |
| Joshua Allen | Apr 23, 2002 10:38 pm | |
| Mark Nottingham | Apr 23, 2002 10:57 pm | |
| Mark Nottingham | Apr 23, 2002 11:16 pm | |
| Joshua Allen | Apr 23, 2002 11:20 pm | |
| Dan Connolly | Apr 23, 2002 11:23 pm | |
| Tim Bray | Apr 23, 2002 11:56 pm | |
| Bullard, Claude L (Len) | Apr 24, 2002 7:23 am | |
| Larry Masinter | Apr 24, 2002 8:47 am | |
| Keith Moore | Apr 24, 2002 10:46 am | |
| Bullard, Claude L (Len) | Apr 24, 2002 10:56 am | |
| Aaron Swartz | Apr 24, 2002 11:27 am | |
| Mike Dierken | Apr 24, 2002 12:06 pm | |
| David Orchard | Apr 25, 2002 10:54 am | |
| Roy T. Fielding | May 5, 2002 3:38 am |

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| Subject: | RE: FW: draft findings on Unsafe Methods (whenToUseGet-7) | Actions... |
|---|---|---|
| From: | Hutchison, Nigel (Nige...@softwareag.com) | |
| Date: | Apr 16, 2002 9:43:42 am | |
| List: | org.w3.www-tag | |
In Software AG we have had, over the last couple of years, similar arguments about the use of HTTP in the REST way, as apposed to using in the way described in your typical quotation from the anonymous book.
Of course it was not called REST by us, but something like "mumble mumble as it actually says in the HTTP 1.1 spec". Most of the developers made their first stumbling steps with HTTP using books and examples and got around to reading the HTTP spec quite a bit later. (me too) Some were quite amazed to find what the spec actually included. I was able to stop one bunch of guys adding new Software AG proprietary verbs to HTTP.
Our experience suggests that persuading developers to read the spec and exploit the technology is not a hopeless task.
My opinion at the time, and up to now, was and is, HTTP as specified and implemented in browsers and web intermediaries is a wonderful thing and has been proved to be useful and scaleable at the planetary level. Just hacking RPCs over HTTP on a "gee, that works basis" isn't exploiting the existing infrastructure. It is like using a chainsaw to cut down a tree without pulling the rope first.
I personally find the prospect of having to buy a SOAP Cache from (name your Web Services technology supplier) to make a web service scaleable, instead of using existing web intermediary technology like Squid, somewhat distressing. Particularly if it could have been avoided by some concerted activity in the W3C.
regards
Nigel Hutchison
Nigel W.O Hutchison Chief Scientist, W3C AC Representative Software AG Uhlandstr 12, D-64297 Darmstadt, Germany Tel +49 6151 92 1207
-----Original Message----- From: jon...@research.att.com [mailto:jon...@research.att.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 5:45 PM To: moo...@cs.utk.edu; www-...@w3.org Cc: dorc...@bea.com; www-...@w3.org; xml-...@w3.org Subject: Re: FW: draft findings on Unsafe Methods (whenToUseGet-7)
Here's a quote from a random "web programming" book, which will remain nameless:
That's all the coverage we plan to give the GET method. In fact, it's not recommended for most serious CGI programming, because it's limited in the number of characters it can safely accommodate for transfer between the browser and the host to an effective maximum of 255 characters (including the plus and equal signs used for URL encoding). That may sound like a lot, but in a complex form, it's nowhere near enough!
In the sections that follow, we'll take a gander at the POST HTTP method, preferred by most CGI programmers for serious data-passing, because it is not subject to the limitations that restrict GET's abilities to transfer data from the browser to the server (and on to your CGI programs).
With views like this having been very much in the ether for a long time, it is hard to get the genie back in the bottle. Since there are no guarantees anyway, I think a reasonable middle ground for web services would be to have a standard vocabulary for services to characterize their semantics along many dimensions, including the strict GET/POST distinction. This would be useful across bindings other than HTTP as well.
Mark A. Jones AT&T Labs Shannon Laboratory Room 2A-02 180 Park Ave. Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971
email: jon...@research.att.com phone: (973) 360-8326 fax: (973) 236-6453







