83 messages in org.w3.www-tagRE: FW: draft findings on Unsafe Meth...
FromSent OnAttachments
Dan ConnollyApr 15, 2002 8:50 am 
Larry MasinterApr 15, 2002 1:44 pm 
David OrchardApr 15, 2002 3:01 pm 
David OrchardApr 15, 2002 3:19 pm 
Mark BakerApr 15, 2002 8:00 pm 
Keith MooreApr 15, 2002 8:37 pm 
Scott CantorApr 15, 2002 9:28 pm 
Edwin KhodabakchianApr 15, 2002 9:34 pm 
David OrchardApr 15, 2002 10:18 pm 
Paul PrescodApr 15, 2002 11:17 pm 
Tim BrayApr 15, 2002 11:32 pm 
Mark NottinghamApr 16, 2002 1:01 am 
Tim BrayApr 16, 2002 1:02 am 
Mark NottinghamApr 16, 2002 1:09 am 
Paul PrescodApr 16, 2002 2:11 am 
Paul PrescodApr 16, 2002 3:02 am 
Mark BakerApr 16, 2002 4:54 am 
Williams, StuartApr 16, 2002 8:22 am 
Keith MooreApr 16, 2002 8:32 am 
jon...@research.att.comApr 16, 2002 8:44 am 
Scott CantorApr 16, 2002 8:55 am 
Paul PrescodApr 16, 2002 9:40 am 
Mark NottinghamApr 16, 2002 9:42 am 
Hutchison, NigelApr 16, 2002 9:43 am 
Henrik Frystyk NielsenApr 16, 2002 10:48 am 
Bullard, Claude L (Len)Apr 16, 2002 1:46 pm 
Larry MasinterApr 16, 2002 6:39 pm 
Roy T. FieldingApr 16, 2002 7:54 pm 
Larry MasinterApr 16, 2002 10:10 pm 
Graham KlyneApr 17, 2002 1:54 am 
Paul PrescodApr 18, 2002 12:33 am 
Graham KlyneApr 18, 2002 9:11 am 
Alex RousskovApr 18, 2002 9:30 am 
Paul PrescodApr 18, 2002 9:45 am 
Graham KlyneApr 18, 2002 11:58 am 
Roy T. FieldingApr 18, 2002 3:11 pm 
Don BoxApr 18, 2002 6:28 pm 
Mark BakerApr 18, 2002 8:50 pm 
Keith MooreApr 18, 2002 8:54 pm 
Paul PrescodApr 18, 2002 10:00 pm 
Graham KlyneApr 19, 2002 12:53 am 
Bill de hÓraApr 19, 2002 4:18 am 
Roy T. FieldingApr 19, 2002 1:20 pm 
Anne Thomas ManesApr 22, 2002 3:23 pm 
Paul PrescodApr 22, 2002 4:01 pm 
Anne Thomas ManesApr 22, 2002 8:17 pm 
Paul PrescodApr 22, 2002 10:21 pm 
Anne Thomas ManesApr 23, 2002 5:36 am 
Paul PrescodApr 23, 2002 12:03 pm 
Paul PrescodApr 23, 2002 2:09 pm 
Roy T. FieldingApr 23, 2002 2:14 pm 
Bullard, Claude L (Len)Apr 23, 2002 2:50 pm 
Joshua AllenApr 23, 2002 2:53 pm 
David OrchardApr 23, 2002 4:14 pm 
Keith MooreApr 23, 2002 5:05 pm 
Roy T. FieldingApr 23, 2002 5:14 pm 
Simon St.LaurentApr 23, 2002 5:18 pm 
Larry MasinterApr 23, 2002 6:31 pm 
Mark BakerApr 23, 2002 6:36 pm 
Paul PrescodApr 23, 2002 8:03 pm 
Tim BrayApr 23, 2002 8:30 pm 
Dan ConnollyApr 23, 2002 9:05 pm 
Joshua AllenApr 23, 2002 9:10 pm 
Anne Thomas ManesApr 23, 2002 9:28 pm 
Mark NottinghamApr 23, 2002 9:42 pm 
Jeff BoneApr 23, 2002 9:42 pm 
Joshua AllenApr 23, 2002 10:02 pm 
Paul PrescodApr 23, 2002 10:05 pm 
Joshua AllenApr 23, 2002 10:27 pm 
Joshua AllenApr 23, 2002 10:38 pm 
Mark NottinghamApr 23, 2002 10:57 pm 
Mark NottinghamApr 23, 2002 11:16 pm 
Joshua AllenApr 23, 2002 11:20 pm 
Dan ConnollyApr 23, 2002 11:23 pm 
Tim BrayApr 23, 2002 11:56 pm 
Bullard, Claude L (Len)Apr 24, 2002 7:23 am 
Larry MasinterApr 24, 2002 8:47 am 
Keith MooreApr 24, 2002 10:46 am 
Bullard, Claude L (Len)Apr 24, 2002 10:56 am 
Aaron SwartzApr 24, 2002 11:27 am 
Mike DierkenApr 24, 2002 12:06 pm 
David OrchardApr 25, 2002 10:54 am 
Roy T. FieldingMay 5, 2002 3:38 am 
Actions with this message:
Paste this link in email or IM:
Paste this link in email or IM:
Atom feed for this thread
Paste this URL into your reader:
Subject:RE: FW: draft findings on Unsafe Methods (whenToUseGet-7)Actions...
From:Hutchison, Nigel (Nige@softwareag.com)
Date:Apr 16, 2002 9:43:42 am
List:org.w3.www-tag

In Software AG we have had, over the last couple of years, similar arguments about the use of HTTP in the REST way, as apposed to using in the way described in your typical quotation from the anonymous book.

Of course it was not called REST by us, but something like "mumble mumble as it actually says in the HTTP 1.1 spec". Most of the developers made their first stumbling steps with HTTP using books and examples and got around to reading the HTTP spec quite a bit later. (me too) Some were quite amazed to find what the spec actually included. I was able to stop one bunch of guys adding new Software AG proprietary verbs to HTTP.

Our experience suggests that persuading developers to read the spec and exploit the technology is not a hopeless task.

My opinion at the time, and up to now, was and is, HTTP as specified and implemented in browsers and web intermediaries is a wonderful thing and has been proved to be useful and scaleable at the planetary level. Just hacking RPCs over HTTP on a "gee, that works basis" isn't exploiting the existing infrastructure. It is like using a chainsaw to cut down a tree without pulling the rope first.

I personally find the prospect of having to buy a SOAP Cache from (name your Web Services technology supplier) to make a web service scaleable, instead of using existing web intermediary technology like Squid, somewhat distressing. Particularly if it could have been avoided by some concerted activity in the W3C.

regards

Nigel Hutchison

Nigel W.O Hutchison Chief Scientist, W3C AC Representative Software AG Uhlandstr 12, D-64297 Darmstadt, Germany Tel +49 6151 92 1207

-----Original Message----- From: jon@research.att.com [mailto:jon@research.att.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 5:45 PM To: moo@cs.utk.edu; www-@w3.org Cc: dorc@bea.com; www-@w3.org; xml-@w3.org Subject: Re: FW: draft findings on Unsafe Methods (whenToUseGet-7)

Here's a quote from a random "web programming" book, which will remain nameless:

That's all the coverage we plan to give the GET method. In fact, it's not recommended for most serious CGI programming, because it's limited in the number of characters it can safely accommodate for transfer between the browser and the host to an effective maximum of 255 characters (including the plus and equal signs used for URL encoding). That may sound like a lot, but in a complex form, it's nowhere near enough!

In the sections that follow, we'll take a gander at the POST HTTP method, preferred by most CGI programmers for serious data-passing, because it is not subject to the limitations that restrict GET's abilities to transfer data from the browser to the server (and on to your CGI programs).

With views like this having been very much in the ether for a long time, it is hard to get the genie back in the bottle. Since there are no guarantees anyway, I think a reasonable middle ground for web services would be to have a standard vocabulary for services to characterize their semantics along many dimensions, including the strict GET/POST distinction. This would be useful across bindings other than HTTP as well.

Mark A. Jones AT&T Labs Shannon Laboratory Room 2A-02 180 Park Ave. Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971