atom feed130 messages in edu.ku.nhm.mailman.taxacomRe: [Taxacom] validation of taxon names
FromSent OnAttachments
Armand TurpelFeb 14, 2012 12:41 am 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 14, 2012 1:01 pm 
Armand TurpelFeb 15, 2012 12:59 am 
Roderic PageFeb 15, 2012 1:50 am 
Paul KirkFeb 15, 2012 1:55 am 
greg whitbreadFeb 15, 2012 5:05 am 
Chris ThompsonFeb 15, 2012 8:03 am 
David PattersonFeb 15, 2012 8:07 am 
Roderic PageFeb 15, 2012 9:12 am 
Doug YanegaFeb 15, 2012 10:40 am 
Paul KirkFeb 15, 2012 10:51 am 
Roderic PageFeb 15, 2012 11:23 am 
Armand TurpelFeb 15, 2012 11:39 am 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 15, 2012 12:47 pm 
Jim CroftFeb 15, 2012 1:06 pm 
Curtis ClarkFeb 15, 2012 5:49 pm 
Tony...@csiro.auFeb 15, 2012 7:19 pm 
Roderic PageFeb 15, 2012 10:18 pm 
Jim CroftFeb 15, 2012 10:29 pm 
Armand TurpelFeb 16, 2012 5:12 am 
Roderic PageFeb 16, 2012 8:24 am 
Doug YanegaFeb 16, 2012 9:45 am 
Chuck MillerFeb 16, 2012 11:57 am 
Bradley BoyleFeb 16, 2012 2:45 pm 
Richard ZanderFeb 16, 2012 3:10 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 16, 2012 3:24 pm 
Frederick W. SchuelerFeb 16, 2012 3:31 pm 
Chuck MillerFeb 16, 2012 4:14 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 16, 2012 4:28 pm 
Chris ThompsonFeb 16, 2012 7:05 pm 
Kim van der LindeFeb 16, 2012 7:13 pm 
Neal EvenhuisFeb 16, 2012 7:27 pm 
Kim van der LindeFeb 16, 2012 7:38 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 16, 2012 7:40 pm 
muscapaulFeb 17, 2012 12:16 am 
Dr Brian TaylorFeb 17, 2012 12:23 am 
Armand TurpelFeb 17, 2012 1:25 am 
Chris ThompsonFeb 17, 2012 7:03 am 
Chris ThompsonFeb 17, 2012 11:23 am 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 17, 2012 1:09 pm 
Chris ThompsonFeb 17, 2012 2:04 pm 
Tony...@csiro.auFeb 17, 2012 2:32 pm 
Richard PyleFeb 17, 2012 2:51 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 17, 2012 3:16 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 17, 2012 3:18 pm 
Richard PyleFeb 17, 2012 3:22 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 17, 2012 3:37 pm 
Richard PyleFeb 17, 2012 5:06 pm 
Tony...@csiro.auFeb 17, 2012 5:18 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 17, 2012 5:27 pm 
Curtis ClarkFeb 17, 2012 7:39 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 17, 2012 8:04 pm 
Richard ZanderFeb 18, 2012 9:26 am 
Richard ZanderFeb 18, 2012 9:59 am 
Richard PyleFeb 18, 2012 11:33 am 
Curtis ClarkFeb 18, 2012 6:45 pm 
Richard PyleFeb 18, 2012 8:59 pm 
73 later messages
Subject:Re: [Taxacom] validation of taxon names
From:Chris Thompson (xela@cox.net)
Date:Feb 15, 2012 8:03:40 am
List:edu.ku.nhm.mailman.taxacom

All:

Yes, Paul is right in his response to Rod.

And, Rod is right to ask why simple questions (except one isn't simple) can't be answered and make public.

As some may know, I am building the Systema Dipterorum (www.diptera.org). That database has some 200,000 names related to flies (Insecta, Diptera) and some 160,000 species.

We are attempting to provide the maximal information about scientific names of flies, including information about the type-locality and location of type specimens. Yes, some of our information is shared with the Annual Checklist of Life (Species2000) BUT they use only a limited amount of it and do not include fossils, etc. And there are political issues*.

Why isn't this "very simple" job not done? BECAUSE no one wants to pay the costs. Everyone expects taxonomy to be FREE. In previous years, my sole source of support was a $50K US grant from the Schlinger Foundation, but last year it was cut to $25K, yet more two thousand new species of flies were described last year! Sisyphus would understand the problem!

Now the other not so simple issue is about "validation," or what is a "valid" name for a species. This is because despite what many continue to think, Taxonomy is SCIENCE, not stamp-collecting. Each species is a scientific hypothesis, and scientists do disagree upon what is the correct (valid) hypothesis. So, one taxonomist may declare his new species is valid, a correct hypothesis about a group of individuals that occur (or occurred) in nature and share similarities. But other taxonomists may disagree and argue that that hypothesis is based only on individual variation and the individuals really belong to another species / taxon.

AND then there is the issue of Different classifications: Is it Aedes aegypti or Stegomyia aegypti / Drosophila melanogaster or Sophophora melanogaster. Again scientists disagree over the issue.

Oh, well ... I need to get back to the database work.

Sincerely,

Chris Thompson

from home

*For example, they delete the New World phlebotomine flies from our data as it is critical to have a French contributor even though the information is 15 years out of date! (2011 version)

-----Original Message----- From: Paul Kirk Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 4:55 AM To: Roderic Page ; taxacom Subject: Re: [Taxacom] validation of taxon names

Well Rod ... I guess you know what I'm going to say now (I'm on thin ice, of course) ... :-)

For the Fungi the combination of Index Fungorum / Species Fungorum provides these services ... for humans ... and if 'we' had more resources it could all be automated - yes, I know the web services still don't work - my bad - but then how should I spend my time: fixing it for machines or adding missing content for humans?

-----Original Message----- From: taxa@mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxa@mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Roderic Page Sent: 15 February 2012 09:51 To: taxacom Subject: Re: [Taxacom] validation of taxon names

But isn't it bizarre that our field can't offer the kind of service Armand is looking for?

Very simple questions are being asked:

1. Is this a name? 2. Is this the correct way to write it? 3. Is this name currently in use? 4. What other names are related to this name (e.g., synonyms, lexical variants)? 5. Where was this name published? Can I see that publication?

Yes, there will always be edge cases, but in general these are straightforward questions and yet we have failed to provide a simple, global tool to answer them.

Regards

Rod

On 14 Feb 2012, at 21:02, Stephen Thorpe wrote:

Hi Armand, Your question opens a familiar "can of worms", as we say! Currently, there is no comprehensive source of validated scientific names, and certain vagueness in some ICZN Code articles makes it unlikely that there could ever be a robust notion of name availability. I work on Wikispecies to create something akin to what you want, except that I try to make the names verifiable by the user, rather than just saying "you can trust me". Hence, it involves work on the part of the user. Most users want someone else to do the work, and to be "spoon fed" with validated names, but this just isn't realistic ...

Cheers, Stephen

________________________________ From: Armand Turpel <arma@gmail.com> To: taxa@mailman.nhm.ku.edu Sent: Tuesday, 14 February 2012 9:42 PM Subject: [Taxacom] validation of taxon names

Hi,

We have a database with over 80000 species taxon names which we want to compare and validate against other databases. Doing this job isn't very easy:

1. The majority of organizations only provide web interfaces to search for single taxon names. 2. Copyrights of data are some times not very clear 3. Quality of data is doubtful. > - Lamia amputator Guérin-Méneville, 1844 - Lamia amputator Guerin-Meneville, 1844 - Lamia amputator Guérin-Méneville - ......

The only organization we know that provide its whole database for download is species2000 (catalogue of life > COL). We created a postgresql version for the COL data from which it is possible to compare a big number of taxon names in one run. Postgresql provide good fuzzy string algorithms. But the COL data isn't error free and it isn't complete for our region.

The question is: Which organization provide trustful, complete (as possible) and full accessible data?

a+

arm

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--------------------------------------------------------- Roderic Page Professor of Taxonomy Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences Graham Kerr Building University of Glasgow Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK

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