| From | Sent On | Attachments |
|---|---|---|
| Андрей Чернов | Oct 19, 2000 9:48 pm | |
| Udo Schweigert | Oct 19, 2000 10:57 pm | |
| Андрей Чернов | Oct 19, 2000 11:39 pm | |
| Андрей Чернов | Oct 19, 2000 11:51 pm | |
| Doug Barton | Oct 20, 2000 1:18 am | |
| Андрей Чернов | Oct 20, 2000 9:27 am | |
| Андрей Чернов | Oct 20, 2000 9:43 am | |
| Mark Murray | Oct 20, 2000 10:06 am | |
| Андрей Чернов | Oct 20, 2000 1:13 pm | |
| Warner Losh | Oct 24, 2000 11:15 am | |
| Terry Lambert | Oct 25, 2000 3:35 am | |
| Андрей Чернов | Oct 25, 2000 3:50 am | |
| Mark Murray | Oct 25, 2000 10:37 am | |
| Андрей Чернов | Oct 25, 2000 11:12 am | |
| Wesley Morgan | Oct 25, 2000 2:15 pm | |
| Mark Murray | Oct 25, 2000 3:12 pm | |
| John W. De Boskey | Oct 25, 2000 4:20 pm | |
| Wesley Morgan | Oct 25, 2000 4:50 pm | |
| Mark Murray | Oct 25, 2000 5:01 pm | |
| Doug Barton | Oct 25, 2000 9:28 pm | |
| Ed Hall | Oct 26, 2000 12:30 am | |
| David O'Brien | Oct 26, 2000 12:50 am | |
| Андрей Чернов | Oct 26, 2000 1:47 am | |
| Kris Kennaway | Oct 26, 2000 2:17 am | |
| Kris Kennaway | Oct 26, 2000 2:21 am | |
| Андрей Чернов | Oct 26, 2000 2:54 am | |
| Андрей Чернов | Oct 26, 2000 3:01 am | |
| Rod Taylor | Oct 26, 2000 3:30 am | |
| Андрей Чернов | Oct 26, 2000 3:34 am | |
| Jordan Hubbard | Oct 26, 2000 5:20 am | |
| John W. De Boskey | Oct 26, 2000 6:24 am | |
| Matt Dillon | Oct 26, 2000 9:55 am | |
| Mark Murray | Oct 26, 2000 10:06 am | |
| Mark Murray | Oct 26, 2000 10:17 am | |
| John Baldwin | Oct 26, 2000 11:06 am | |
| Андрей Чернов | Oct 26, 2000 11:36 am | |
| Terry Lambert | Oct 26, 2000 12:04 pm | |
| Mark Murray | Oct 26, 2000 12:39 pm | |
| Doug Barton | Oct 26, 2000 12:49 pm | |
| David O'Brien | Oct 26, 2000 1:26 pm | |
| Mark Murray | Oct 26, 2000 1:29 pm | |
| Matt Dillon | Oct 26, 2000 1:47 pm | |
| Mark Murray | Oct 26, 2000 2:02 pm | |
| Ed Hall | Oct 26, 2000 2:03 pm | |
| Matt Dillon | Oct 26, 2000 2:25 pm | |
| Doug Barton | Oct 26, 2000 2:44 pm | |
| Poul-Henning Kamp | Oct 26, 2000 2:51 pm | |
| Wesley Morgan | Oct 26, 2000 3:07 pm | |
| David O'Brien | Oct 26, 2000 3:15 pm | |
| Poul-Henning Kamp | Oct 26, 2000 3:18 pm | |
| Jim Bryant | Oct 26, 2000 3:29 pm | |
| Mark Murray | Oct 26, 2000 3:56 pm | |
| Doug Barton | Oct 26, 2000 9:00 pm | |
| Terry Lambert | Oct 27, 2000 5:19 pm | |
| Doug Barton | Oct 27, 2000 7:18 pm |
| Subject: | Re: entropy reseeding is totally broken | |
|---|---|---|
| From: | Mark Murray (ma...@grondar.za) | |
| Date: | Oct 26, 2000 12:39:35 pm | |
| List: | org.freebsd.freebsd-current | |
The actual time would probably be more useful than the time since boot.
Heck - I can use both. Its cheap enough.
I still have a problem with what I see as a fundamental weakness in storing "randomness" across reboots.
Schneier recommends this in his Yarrow paper.
Logically, given a sufficiently large amount of time between a crash and the subsequent reboot, one could predict the random state, and attack immediately after a reboot... just like one could guess the fortune now, following a reboot.
Sure. If you followed the complete thread, you'll see we are trying to deal with this.
The state save in the shutdown -- besides not working unless you hopping on one leg, pat your head, and rub your tummy while singinging "Danny Boy" (or the moral equivalent of not being allowed to crash or use the "halt" or "reboot" commands) -- seems to me to be an inherent security flaw.
Not really. To exploit it, you need to be either root or have the console. It would be easier to get the state out of /dev/kmem at that stage. We covered this _months_ ago.
Matt's points about compromise, number of random bits, as well as the amount of time it's OK to take, are also salient.
Bottom line: any algorithm predicated only on saved state and based on predictable progression over a large period of time in which a compromise may be effected, is a problem.
The relevance to Yarrow is...?
And your solution is.....?
Perhaps it's time to draft a "big gun"? Someone who knows enough about number theory to know that multiplying two random numbers together results in less randomness, not more?
Bruce Schneier good enough?
Or perhaps it's time to use a "tried but true" algorithm, like the 48 bit linear congruential algorithm, with a polynomial preterbation based on the current time at the time of reseeding, until the random ducks get (not) in a row? Pseudorandom seeding with a hidden key has got to be better than anything that opens a computation window for as long as your system is down after a crash... after all, we _are_ talking about security through obscurity (of the next number in a pseudorandom sequence), here.
Yarrow not good enough for you? Why not? What cryptanalysis of it are you aware of that leads to a compromise?
Where is your rebuttal of Schneier's "Attacking PRNG's" paper?
Nothing wrong with finding a handy giant, and standing on its shoulders... it's a time honored scientific tradition.
And I didn't do this how....?
I'm not really volunteering here, since I'm just an applied mathematician, and only ever got off on theory as it applied to real problems in physics and computer science and elsewhere. I just know enough to know that it'd be dangerous to trust me to do the job 100% correctly. 8-). But I also see this as getting more important as /dev/random gets more and more central to security and authentication policy and enforcement.
Isn't theory wonderful?
M
-- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org
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