atom feed130 messages in edu.ku.nhm.mailman.taxacomRe: [Taxacom] validation of taxon names
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Curtis ClarkFeb 17, 2012 7:39 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 17, 2012 8:04 pm 
Richard ZanderFeb 18, 2012 9:26 am 
Richard ZanderFeb 18, 2012 9:59 am 
Richard PyleFeb 18, 2012 11:33 am 
Curtis ClarkFeb 18, 2012 6:45 pm 
Richard PyleFeb 18, 2012 8:59 pm 
Paul van RijckevorselFeb 19, 2012 12:36 am 
Roderic PageFeb 19, 2012 5:48 am 
Paul van RijckevorselFeb 19, 2012 7:36 am 
Roderic PageFeb 19, 2012 8:09 am 
Paul van RijckevorselFeb 19, 2012 8:58 am 
Curtis ClarkFeb 19, 2012 8:59 am 
Curtis ClarkFeb 19, 2012 9:49 am 
Frederick W. SchuelerFeb 19, 2012 10:29 am 
Richard PyleFeb 19, 2012 12:14 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 19, 2012 12:45 pm 
Bob MesibovFeb 19, 2012 2:23 pm 
Walker, KenFeb 19, 2012 2:36 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 19, 2012 2:38 pm 
Bob MesibovFeb 19, 2012 2:54 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 19, 2012 2:56 pm 
Walker, KenFeb 19, 2012 3:08 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 19, 2012 4:05 pm 
Bob MesibovFeb 19, 2012 4:07 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 19, 2012 4:38 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 19, 2012 5:09 pm 
Curtis ClarkFeb 19, 2012 5:18 pm 
Bob MesibovFeb 19, 2012 5:33 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 19, 2012 5:50 pm 
Kenneth KinmanFeb 19, 2012 7:27 pm 
Weakley, AlanFeb 19, 2012 7:47 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 19, 2012 7:50 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 19, 2012 7:52 pm 
Curtis ClarkFeb 19, 2012 8:13 pm 
Stephen ThorpeFeb 19, 2012 8:22 pm 
Dr.B.J.TindallFeb 19, 2012 11:08 pm 
Paul van RijckevorselFeb 19, 2012 11:52 pm 
Paul van RijckevorselFeb 19, 2012 11:56 pm 
Richard PyleFeb 20, 2012 1:02 am 
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Richard PyleFeb 20, 2012 1:27 am 
Richard PyleFeb 20, 2012 1:32 am 
Paul van RijckevorselFeb 20, 2012 3:07 am 
Curtis ClarkFeb 20, 2012 7:28 am 
Paul van RijckevorselFeb 20, 2012 8:55 am 
Richard PyleFeb 20, 2012 9:07 am 
Paul van RijckevorselFeb 20, 2012 9:40 am 
Richard ZanderFeb 20, 2012 10:35 am 
Wolfgang LorenzFeb 20, 2012 11:03 am 
Richard PyleFeb 20, 2012 11:09 am 
David CampbellFeb 20, 2012 11:41 am 
Paul van RijckevorselFeb 21, 2012 1:03 am 
Richard PyleFeb 21, 2012 8:26 am 
Francisco Welter-SchultesFeb 21, 2012 8:48 am 
Paul van RijckevorselFeb 22, 2012 12:30 am 
Paul van RijckevorselFeb 22, 2012 12:44 am 
Adam CottonFeb 22, 2012 3:00 am 
Francisco Welter-SchultesFeb 22, 2012 3:11 am 
Paul van RijckevorselFeb 23, 2012 12:27 am 
Wolfgang LorenzFeb 23, 2012 2:12 am 
Francisco Welter-SchultesFeb 23, 2012 3:31 am 
Kim van der LindeFeb 23, 2012 3:43 am 
Francisco Welter-SchultesFeb 23, 2012 4:02 am 
Dr Brian TaylorFeb 23, 2012 4:29 am 
Francisco Welter-SchultesFeb 23, 2012 5:51 am 
Kim van der LindeFeb 23, 2012 6:12 am 
Dr Brian TaylorFeb 23, 2012 8:06 am 
Fran...@dmns.orgFeb 23, 2012 10:04 am 
Richard ZanderFeb 23, 2012 10:21 am 
Wolfgang LorenzFeb 23, 2012 10:50 am 
Paul van RijckevorselFeb 24, 2012 12:28 am 
Bradley BoyleFeb 24, 2012 11:19 am 
Richard PyleFeb 24, 2012 11:33 am 
Fran...@dmns.orgFeb 24, 2012 12:08 pm 
Dr.B.J.TindallFeb 25, 2012 12:30 am 
Paul van RijckevorselFeb 25, 2012 12:33 am 
Paul van RijckevorselFeb 25, 2012 12:36 am 
Francisco Welter-SchultesFeb 25, 2012 4:18 am 
Michael SchmittFeb 27, 2012 1:55 am 
Subject:Re: [Taxacom] validation of taxon names
From:Wolfgang Lorenz (faun@googlemail.com)
Date:Feb 20, 2012 11:03:54 am
List:edu.ku.nhm.mailman.taxacom

Paul wrote: "The big question in my mind is whether a specific name (or a subspecific name) can be an available name."

A "specific name" is the "second name in a binomen and in a trinomen" (acc. to ICZN English glossary), which seems to be (almost) equal to the "epithet" in botany. While I cannot find "epithet" in the English ICZN glossary, it is there in the French version: "épithète, s.f. Nom spécifique ou nom subspécifique dans un nom du niveau espèce. [Angl.: species-group name]". Why such differences in English and French ICZN versions???

Only in combination with a genus name, such an epithet can be an available species-group name in zoology, I thought. Or, did I misunderstand the question?

Greetings, Wolfgang

2012/2/20 Richard Zander <Rich@mobot.org>

Wait a minute. There is a sequence of terms involved in botany: A name must be effectively published, then checked to see if it is valid, and then legitimate in breaking no rules, and them correct in that "Each taxonomic group with a particular circumscription, position, and rank can bear only one correct name, the earliest that is in accordance with the Rules, except in specified cases. (Principle IV).

So we are talking about one name per recognized taxon. What that name is can be approached nomenclaturally by seeing which homotypic or heterotypic synonym is earliest for the entity at that rank, plus legitimately published. Sometimes informatics questions can be solved with the Rules, which is nice.

In cases where the rules don't fix a problem, we can use the well-known philosophical idea that if you phrase the question right, an idea of the answer presents itself. Suppose two authorities have a different idea of what rank or in which genus a species should be. Since we are scientists, we should be able to check the methods the authorities used to analyze the situation. Maybe they didn't use any analytic methods, in which case the study is not replicable and it isn't science; well then that is when a user selects a name subjectively from silly taxonomy. Not good.

But most of the time taxonomists use some kind of method, or heuristics, or system, and so on, no matter how informal or perfunctory. So a user can ask, what was this system and are the studies replicable? Did different authors sample the same group? Were the samples big enough? If not big enough and analogy was used, what analogy? What heuristic or species concept or genus concept was used to sort groups? Surely if taxonomists are really scientists, their methods are amenable to formalization and replication from the same sampled data set. Such methods are not limited to only phenetics or only phylogenetics, but some combination of methods that works to cluster specimens into optimal groups that reflect both obvious similarity and less obvious evolution.

Again, I think, yes, many taxa are well known as distinct at some level and are generally agreed upon. But for a myriad taxa, we have little data, little access to well-sampled material, few funds or students or time to do the biosystematics needed to truly understand these taxa. Clear circumscriptions agreed upon by most are possible, in my opinion. Asking taxonomists for clear circumscriptions agreed upon most right now this instant is more like "Hurry up now, we are waiting, waiting, waiting."

* * * * * * * * * * * * Richard H. Zander Missouri Botanical Garden, PO Box 299, St. Louis, MO 63166-0299 USA Web sites: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/ and http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/bfna/bfnamenu.htm Modern Evolutionary Systematics Web site: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/21EvSy.htm

-----Original Message----- From: taxa@mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxa@mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Curtis Clark Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 10:13 PM To: taxa@mailman.nhm.ku.edu Subject: Re: [Taxacom] validation of taxon names

On 2/19/2012 7:52 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:

if "valid" means the same in botany as it does in zoology,

It doesn't; it means "published according to the rules". The botanical equivalent of the zoological "valid" is "correct".

-- Curtis Clark http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark After 2012-01-02: Biological Sciences +1 909 869 4140 Cal Poly Pomona, Pomona CA 91768

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