| From | Sent On | Attachments |
|---|---|---|
| 50 earlier messages | ||
| Curtis Clark | Feb 17, 2012 7:39 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 17, 2012 8:04 pm | |
| Richard Zander | Feb 18, 2012 9:26 am | |
| Richard Zander | Feb 18, 2012 9:59 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 18, 2012 11:33 am | |
| Curtis Clark | Feb 18, 2012 6:45 pm | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 18, 2012 8:59 pm | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 19, 2012 12:36 am | |
| Roderic Page | Feb 19, 2012 5:48 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 19, 2012 7:36 am | |
| Roderic Page | Feb 19, 2012 8:09 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 19, 2012 8:58 am | |
| Curtis Clark | Feb 19, 2012 8:59 am | |
| Curtis Clark | Feb 19, 2012 9:49 am | |
| Frederick W. Schueler | Feb 19, 2012 10:29 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 19, 2012 12:14 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 12:45 pm | |
| Bob Mesibov | Feb 19, 2012 2:23 pm | |
| Walker, Ken | Feb 19, 2012 2:36 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 2:38 pm | |
| Bob Mesibov | Feb 19, 2012 2:54 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 2:56 pm | |
| Walker, Ken | Feb 19, 2012 3:08 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 4:05 pm | |
| Bob Mesibov | Feb 19, 2012 4:07 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 4:38 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 5:09 pm | |
| Curtis Clark | Feb 19, 2012 5:18 pm | |
| Bob Mesibov | Feb 19, 2012 5:33 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 5:50 pm | |
| Kenneth Kinman | Feb 19, 2012 7:27 pm | |
| Weakley, Alan | Feb 19, 2012 7:47 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 7:50 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 7:52 pm | |
| Curtis Clark | Feb 19, 2012 8:13 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 8:22 pm | |
| Dr.B.J.Tindall | Feb 19, 2012 11:08 pm | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 19, 2012 11:52 pm | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 19, 2012 11:56 pm | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 20, 2012 1:02 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 20, 2012 1:24 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 20, 2012 1:27 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 20, 2012 1:32 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 20, 2012 3:07 am | |
| Curtis Clark | Feb 20, 2012 7:28 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 20, 2012 8:55 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 20, 2012 9:07 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 20, 2012 9:40 am | |
| Richard Zander | Feb 20, 2012 10:35 am | |
| Wolfgang Lorenz | Feb 20, 2012 11:03 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 20, 2012 11:09 am | |
| David Campbell | Feb 20, 2012 11:41 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 21, 2012 1:03 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 21, 2012 8:26 am | |
| Francisco Welter-Schultes | Feb 21, 2012 8:48 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 22, 2012 12:30 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 22, 2012 12:44 am | |
| Adam Cotton | Feb 22, 2012 3:00 am | |
| Francisco Welter-Schultes | Feb 22, 2012 3:11 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 23, 2012 12:27 am | |
| Wolfgang Lorenz | Feb 23, 2012 2:12 am | |
| Francisco Welter-Schultes | Feb 23, 2012 3:31 am | |
| Kim van der Linde | Feb 23, 2012 3:43 am | |
| Francisco Welter-Schultes | Feb 23, 2012 4:02 am | |
| Dr Brian Taylor | Feb 23, 2012 4:29 am | |
| Francisco Welter-Schultes | Feb 23, 2012 5:51 am | |
| Kim van der Linde | Feb 23, 2012 6:12 am | |
| Dr Brian Taylor | Feb 23, 2012 8:06 am | |
| Fran...@dmns.org | Feb 23, 2012 10:04 am | |
| Richard Zander | Feb 23, 2012 10:21 am | |
| Wolfgang Lorenz | Feb 23, 2012 10:50 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 24, 2012 12:28 am | |
| Bradley Boyle | Feb 24, 2012 11:19 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 24, 2012 11:33 am | |
| Fran...@dmns.org | Feb 24, 2012 12:08 pm | |
| Dr.B.J.Tindall | Feb 25, 2012 12:30 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 25, 2012 12:33 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 25, 2012 12:36 am | |
| Francisco Welter-Schultes | Feb 25, 2012 4:18 am | |
| Michael Schmitt | Feb 27, 2012 1:55 am | |
| Subject: | Re: [Taxacom] validation of taxon names | |
|---|---|---|
| From: | Wolfgang Lorenz (faun...@googlemail.com) | |
| Date: | Feb 20, 2012 11:03:54 am | |
| List: | edu.ku.nhm.mailman.taxacom | |
Paul wrote: "The big question in my mind is whether a specific name (or a subspecific name) can be an available name."
A "specific name" is the "second name in a binomen and in a trinomen" (acc. to ICZN English glossary), which seems to be (almost) equal to the "epithet" in botany. While I cannot find "epithet" in the English ICZN glossary, it is there in the French version: "épithète, s.f. Nom spécifique ou nom subspécifique dans un nom du niveau espèce. [Angl.: species-group name]". Why such differences in English and French ICZN versions???
Only in combination with a genus name, such an epithet can be an available species-group name in zoology, I thought. Or, did I misunderstand the question?
Greetings, Wolfgang
----------------------------- Wolfgang Lorenz, Tutzing, Germany
2012/2/20 Richard Zander <Rich...@mobot.org>
Wait a minute. There is a sequence of terms involved in botany: A name must be effectively published, then checked to see if it is valid, and then legitimate in breaking no rules, and them correct in that "Each taxonomic group with a particular circumscription, position, and rank can bear only one correct name, the earliest that is in accordance with the Rules, except in specified cases. (Principle IV).
So we are talking about one name per recognized taxon. What that name is can be approached nomenclaturally by seeing which homotypic or heterotypic synonym is earliest for the entity at that rank, plus legitimately published. Sometimes informatics questions can be solved with the Rules, which is nice.
In cases where the rules don't fix a problem, we can use the well-known philosophical idea that if you phrase the question right, an idea of the answer presents itself. Suppose two authorities have a different idea of what rank or in which genus a species should be. Since we are scientists, we should be able to check the methods the authorities used to analyze the situation. Maybe they didn't use any analytic methods, in which case the study is not replicable and it isn't science; well then that is when a user selects a name subjectively from silly taxonomy. Not good.
But most of the time taxonomists use some kind of method, or heuristics, or system, and so on, no matter how informal or perfunctory. So a user can ask, what was this system and are the studies replicable? Did different authors sample the same group? Were the samples big enough? If not big enough and analogy was used, what analogy? What heuristic or species concept or genus concept was used to sort groups? Surely if taxonomists are really scientists, their methods are amenable to formalization and replication from the same sampled data set. Such methods are not limited to only phenetics or only phylogenetics, but some combination of methods that works to cluster specimens into optimal groups that reflect both obvious similarity and less obvious evolution.
Again, I think, yes, many taxa are well known as distinct at some level and are generally agreed upon. But for a myriad taxa, we have little data, little access to well-sampled material, few funds or students or time to do the biosystematics needed to truly understand these taxa. Clear circumscriptions agreed upon by most are possible, in my opinion. Asking taxonomists for clear circumscriptions agreed upon most right now this instant is more like "Hurry up now, we are waiting, waiting, waiting."
* * * * * * * * * * * * Richard H. Zander Missouri Botanical Garden, PO Box 299, St. Louis, MO 63166-0299 USA Web sites: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/ and http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/bfna/bfnamenu.htm Modern Evolutionary Systematics Web site: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/21EvSy.htm
-----Original Message----- From: taxa...@mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxa...@mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Curtis Clark Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 10:13 PM To: taxa...@mailman.nhm.ku.edu Subject: Re: [Taxacom] validation of taxon names
On 2/19/2012 7:52 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
if "valid" means the same in botany as it does in zoology,
It doesn't; it means "published according to the rules". The botanical equivalent of the zoological "valid" is "correct".
-- Curtis Clark http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark After 2012-01-02: Biological Sciences +1 909 869 4140 Cal Poly Pomona, Pomona CA 91768
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The Taxacom archive going back to 1992 may be searched with either of these methods:
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The Taxacom archive going back to 1992 may be searched with either of these
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