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99 messages in net.php.lists.internalsRe: [PHP-DEV] Re: Short syntax for ar...| From | Sent On | Attachments |
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| Stan Vassilev | FM | May 21, 2008 7:12 pm | |
| Felipe Pena | May 21, 2008 7:20 pm | |
| Stanislav Malyshev | May 21, 2008 8:53 pm | |
| Pierre Joye | May 22, 2008 2:46 am | |
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| Pierre Joye | May 22, 2008 3:33 am | |
| Johannes Schlüter | May 22, 2008 6:56 am | |
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| Rasmus Lerdorf | May 27, 2008 5:27 pm | |
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| Greg Beaver | May 27, 2008 7:43 pm | |
| Philip Olson | May 27, 2008 8:45 pm | |
| Stanislav Malyshev | May 27, 2008 11:15 pm | |
| Antony Dovgal | May 27, 2008 11:21 pm | |
| Stanislav Malyshev | May 27, 2008 11:25 pm | |
| Antony Dovgal | May 27, 2008 11:28 pm | |
| Derick Rethans | May 27, 2008 11:31 pm | |
| Rasmus Lerdorf | May 27, 2008 11:43 pm | |
| Pierre Joye | May 27, 2008 11:52 pm | |
| Antony Dovgal | May 28, 2008 12:11 am | |
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| Derick Rethans | May 28, 2008 12:19 am | |
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| Antony Dovgal | May 28, 2008 12:32 am | |
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| Lokrain | May 28, 2008 2:58 am | |
| Felipe Pena | May 28, 2008 4:27 am | |
| Ford, Mike | May 28, 2008 4:34 am | |
| Greg Beaver | May 28, 2008 4:57 am | |
| Richard Quadling | May 28, 2008 6:13 am | |
| Brian Moon | May 28, 2008 8:20 am | |
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| Chris Stockton | May 28, 2008 8:56 am | |
| Mike | May 28, 2008 10:10 am | |
| Jani Taskinen | May 28, 2008 10:25 am | |
| Chris Stockton | May 28, 2008 10:54 am | |
| Brian Moon | May 28, 2008 11:06 am | |
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| Gregory Beaver | May 28, 2008 12:11 pm | |
| Pierre Joye | May 28, 2008 12:32 pm | |
| Chris Stockton | May 28, 2008 12:43 pm | |
| Stanislav Malyshev | May 28, 2008 1:06 pm | |
| Stanislav Malyshev | May 28, 2008 1:16 pm | |
| Rasmus Lerdorf | May 28, 2008 9:31 pm | |
| Derick Rethans | May 29, 2008 3:56 am | |
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| Marcus Boerger | May 29, 2008 5:48 am | |
| Brian Moon | May 29, 2008 7:54 am | |
| Jonathan Bond-Caron | May 29, 2008 8:02 am | |
| Sebastian Deutsch | May 29, 2008 9:13 am | |
| Johannes Schlüter | May 29, 2008 11:55 am | |
| Johannes Schlüter | May 29, 2008 12:05 pm | |
| Chris Stockton | May 29, 2008 1:32 pm | |
| Johannes Schlüter | May 29, 2008 2:44 pm | |
| Jani Taskinen | May 29, 2008 3:06 pm | |
| Stanislav Malyshev | May 29, 2008 4:03 pm | |
| Lester Caine | May 30, 2008 12:04 am | |
| Pierre Joye | May 30, 2008 2:00 am | |
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| Philip Olson | May 30, 2008 9:14 am | |
| Sebastian Deutsch | May 30, 2008 9:23 am | |
| Lars Strojny | May 31, 2008 5:27 am | |
| Hans Åhlin | May 31, 2008 6:17 am | |
| Hans Åhlin | May 31, 2008 6:26 am | |
| Hans Åhlin | May 31, 2008 6:38 am | |
| Chris Stockton | May 31, 2008 8:42 am | |
| Sebastian Deutsch | May 31, 2008 8:42 am | |
| Lars Strojny | May 31, 2008 9:33 am | |
| Stanislav Malyshev | May 31, 2008 10:45 pm | |
| Marcin Kurzyna | Jun 1, 2008 5:23 am | |
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| Subject: | Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Short syntax for array literals [...] | Actions... |
|---|---|---|
| From: | Derick Rethans (der...@php.net) | |
| Date: | May 29, 2008 3:56:29 am | |
| List: | net.php.lists.internals | |
On Wed, 28 May 2008, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
Mike wrote:
In my opinion I don't think PHP would be where it is today if it wasn't for being so easy to learn and use.
I attribute this directly to the fact that it didn't use a lot of "syntax sugar" that is unreadable and can't be "Googled" for. You can't Google "[]", and my guess is searching PHP.net for "[]" won't return anything useful either. Using Array() is SELF EXPLANATORY! Anyone can see that, search Google for "Array" and learn something about it. How many man hours are going to be wasted: 1. Searching for what the heck [] actually is.
This "No Magic" mantra is something I have been using since day one to guide decisions like this in PHP. But I think you guys are misappropriating it. [] is already our array syntax.
Yes, as an *indexing* mechanism for strings and arrays - that is different from a construct of actually defining it. They are two different things.
$a[1] assumes that the user realize that [] has something to do with arrays. If they don't, they are out of luck, because as you say, you can't search for [] and get something useful. But that's already the case and we are simply building on that existing knowledge. We have to have a minimum set of operators that we feel reasonable certain that people understand. ?: is also not easy to search for, yet we added this ternary shortcut. Likewise, <<< is not easy to look up, but we added HEREDOC and more recently NOWDOC with this syntax.
There is one difference though. The NOWDOC construct allows actually something *new*, whereas [ ] would just be an *alternative* for something can already do.
PHP is about building on the knowledge and experience of the typical target user. This target user changes slowly as we all get older and the industry we are in changes and we need to recognize that and adapt the language appropriately. What is appropriate is of course a really hard call which is what this is all about.
I'd have less issues with adding [] as the array() syntax if it was something that PHP didn't support yet. But we're 12 years down the road now and since arrays were introduced we've always used array(). I realize that there are now other languages that favor this construct, but I don't see why we should then add it as the *exact* same thing as an already existing construct.
I'd be greatly disapointed if a construct would make it into PHP. I think it's the wrong way to go by adding cryptic constructs for something that we've already syntax for. Really, adding 5 more chars doesn't make any difference, and using the full "array()" increases readability as it's an explicit statement. Besides the mantra that you mention, there is another one that we shouldn't keep out of the picture either: PHP is suppose to be easy to pick up, and use, and so far we've done that by requiring explicit names for constructs (with the few exceptions of course). This is why we use array(), $ in front of vars, and preg_match over =~.
regards, Derick
-- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl | http://ezcomponents.org | http://xdebug.org
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