107 messages in org.apache.communityRe: Rules for Revolutionaries
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Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 04:50 
Martin van den Bemt09 Nov 2002 05:21 
Ceki Gülcü09 Nov 2002 06:28 
Costin Manolache09 Nov 2002 08:49 
Sam Ruby09 Nov 2002 09:29 
Costin Manolache09 Nov 2002 10:23 
Ceki Gülcü09 Nov 2002 10:49 
Ceki Gülcü09 Nov 2002 10:58 
Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 12:32 
James Duncan Davidson09 Nov 2002 15:29 
James Duncan Davidson09 Nov 2002 15:37 
Chuck Murcko09 Nov 2002 18:07 
Rodent of Unusual Size10 Nov 2002 05:29 
Ceki Gülcü10 Nov 2002 06:21 
James Duncan Davidson10 Nov 2002 09:14 
Stefano Mazzocchi11 Nov 2002 19:05 
Stephen McConnell11 Nov 2002 19:26 
Sam Ruby11 Nov 2002 19:41 
Jeff Turner11 Nov 2002 19:42 
Stephen McConnell11 Nov 2002 19:43 
Ovidiu Predescu11 Nov 2002 21:34 
Ovidiu Predescu11 Nov 2002 21:35 
Sam Ruby11 Nov 2002 21:50 
Jeff Turner11 Nov 2002 23:17 
Andrew C. Oliver12 Nov 2002 07:18 
Stefano Mazzocchi12 Nov 2002 07:24 
Martin van den Bemt12 Nov 2002 08:18 
Joe Schaefer12 Nov 2002 08:19 
Jeff Turner12 Nov 2002 08:20 
Andrew C. Oliver12 Nov 2002 08:28 
Henri Yandell12 Nov 2002 08:41 
Costin Manolache12 Nov 2002 09:57 
Costin Manolache12 Nov 2002 10:14 
Craig R. McClanahan12 Nov 2002 11:38 
Andrew C. Oliver12 Nov 2002 12:18 
Glenn Nielsen12 Nov 2002 19:04 
Stephen McConnell13 Nov 2002 02:23 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 03:49 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 03:55 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 04:02 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 04:20 
Stephen McConnell13 Nov 2002 04:20 
Stefano Mazzocchi13 Nov 2002 06:44 
Joe Schaefer13 Nov 2002 07:37 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 08:49 
Costin Manolache13 Nov 2002 10:01 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 10:15 
Sam Ruby13 Nov 2002 11:16 
Stefano Mazzocchi13 Nov 2002 11:44 
Costin Manolache13 Nov 2002 12:10 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 17:37 
Roy T. Fielding14 Nov 2002 09:54 
Daniel Rall15 Nov 2002 14:44 
Sam Ruby15 Nov 2002 19:28 
Andrew C. Oliver15 Nov 2002 20:09 
Henri Gomez18 Nov 2002 09:56 
Henri Gomez18 Nov 2002 10:00 
Henri Gomez18 Nov 2002 23:26 
Subject:Re: Rules for Revolutionaries
From:Costin Manolache (cos@apache.org)
Date:11/13/2002 12:10:49 PM
List:org.apache.community

On Wed, 2002-11-13 at 11:16, Sam Ruby wrote:

In http://jakarta.apache.org/site/pmc/01-01-17-meeting-minutes.html, a meeting that you were in physical attendance, one of the roles of the PMC was to act as the veto of last resort. One such instance where I would personally exercise such a veto is if the majority of committers to Tomcat were to want to create a release which is not compliant with the servlet APIs. This is not the only reference I have made to the phrase "veto of last resort".

The PMC or the PMC chair ? It's a huge difference ( especially if most committers are in the PMC )

The fact that you as PMC chair have decided to not use this power is great. But the question if the chair has "benevolent dictator" power remains, and Ken's message ( and yours ) suggest that it's just a matter of "benevolence" - with no explicit restraints on the rules.

My understanding so far was that the chair is bound by the project charter and rules. The project charter defines the release and voting rules.

In bylaws 6.3: "Each Project Management Committee shall be responsible for the active management of one or more projects"

and "The chairman of each Project Management Committee shall be primarily responsible for project(s) managed by such committee, and he or she shall establish rules and procedures for the day to day management of project(s) for which the committee is responsible"

Does it means the rules are subject to change at any time ? ( i.e. can the chair add rules whenever he sees a need ) I also think many people have the wrong impression that the PMC can establish the rules - where it's the chair ( of course the benevolent chair will ask the PMC for its opinion - but without being required to do so )

I am aware that the role defined for the chairman of a PMC is a special one. One that I do not, as a rule, chose to draw attention to.

Given that projects are creating their own PMCs, I think it is quite important for people to know this.

I think it would be very useful for the community to know and understand all the rules that are involved, which doesn't seem the case.

I do believe that the ASF has a number of challenges at the moment. And in my perception of the scheme of things, the topic referenced by this subject line doesn't quite rank.

I agree.

In my perception the fact that many of the people involved in apache are not aware of all the rules and their consequences is one of the biggest problems.

If the interpretation that the chair has the power to change the rules at any time or is above the rules explicitly defined in the project charter is right, I think it can be a problem. ( not for jakarta - but for other projects who may not be lucky to have you or someone like you as chair )

Costin