|Hans-Christoph Steiner||Apr 18, 2006 4:34 pm|
|Mark Polishook||Apr 18, 2006 6:23 pm|
|dafydd hughes||Apr 18, 2006 9:33 pm|
|Koray Tahiroglu||Apr 18, 2006 11:32 pm|
|adam armfield||Apr 19, 2006 6:43 am|
|derek holzer||Apr 19, 2006 8:07 am|
|Hans-Christoph Steiner||Apr 19, 2006 4:20 pm|
|David Powers||Apr 20, 2006 10:40 am|
|Hans-Christoph Steiner||Apr 21, 2006 1:34 am|
|Hans-Christoph Steiner||Apr 21, 2006 1:36 am|
|adam||Apr 21, 2006 3:23 am|
|adam||Apr 21, 2006 3:48 am|
|IOhannes m zmoelnig||Apr 21, 2006 4:49 am|
|IOhannes m zmoelnig||Apr 21, 2006 5:45 am|
|Koray Tahiroglu||Apr 21, 2006 5:57 am|
|B. Bogart||Apr 21, 2006 8:15 am|
|dafydd hughes||Apr 21, 2006 8:24 am|
|Hans-Christoph Steiner||Apr 22, 2006 11:04 am|
|Hans-Christoph Steiner||Apr 22, 2006 11:06 am|
|adam||Apr 23, 2006 10:13 am|
|Hans-Christoph Steiner||Apr 25, 2006 9:06 am|
|derek holzer||Apr 25, 2006 11:49 am|
|David Powers||Apr 25, 2006 12:33 pm|
|day 5||Apr 25, 2006 12:39 pm|
|João Miguel Pais||Apr 26, 2006 1:26 am||.txt|
|adam||Apr 26, 2006 3:06 am|
|Hans-Christoph Steiner||Apr 26, 2006 3:24 am|
|Hans-Christoph Steiner||Apr 26, 2006 3:29 am|
|Hans-Christoph Steiner||Apr 26, 2006 3:30 am|
|David Powers||Apr 26, 2006 12:48 pm|
|day 5||Apr 26, 2006 1:53 pm|
|Hans-Christoph Steiner||Apr 26, 2006 2:20 pm|
|s.koepf||Apr 26, 2006 2:42 pm|
|Mathieu Bouchard||Apr 28, 2006 4:13 pm|
|Mathieu Bouchard||Apr 30, 2006 9:58 am|
|Tim Blechmann||Apr 30, 2006 10:26 am|
|Mathieu Bouchard||Apr 30, 2006 10:33 am|
|Mathieu Bouchard||Apr 30, 2006 10:39 am|
|Chris McCormick||Apr 30, 2006 6:21 pm|
|Mathieu Bouchard||May 1, 2006 7:36 am|
|Chris McCormick||May 1, 2006 6:37 pm|
|Mathieu Bouchard||May 1, 2006 8:17 pm|
|Mathieu Bouchard||May 1, 2006 9:13 pm|
|Chris McCormick||May 1, 2006 10:47 pm|
|Mathieu Bouchard||May 5, 2006 1:34 pm|
|Arie van Schutterhoef||May 5, 2006 1:56 pm|
|Mathieu Bouchard||May 5, 2006 2:12 pm|
|Tim Blechmann||May 5, 2006 2:35 pm|
|day 5||May 5, 2006 4:55 pm|
|Frank Barknecht||May 6, 2006 1:18 am|
|Chris McCormick||May 6, 2006 5:56 am|
|Arie van Schutterhoef||May 6, 2006 6:35 am|
|Mathieu Bouchard||May 6, 2006 11:37 am|
|Mathieu Bouchard||May 6, 2006 11:42 am|
|Mathieu Bouchard||May 6, 2006 11:56 am|
|Mathieu Bouchard||May 6, 2006 12:39 pm|
|Arie van Schutterhoef||May 6, 2006 1:25 pm|
|Frank Barknecht||May 6, 2006 3:09 pm|
|Mathieu Bouchard||May 6, 2006 4:56 pm|
|Arie van Schutterhoef||May 6, 2006 5:41 pm|
|geiger||May 7, 2006 6:15 am|
|Mathieu Bouchard||May 7, 2006 12:22 pm|
|Arie van Schutterhoef||May 7, 2006 3:14 pm|
|Chris McCormick||May 7, 2006 6:24 pm|
|Chris McCormick||May 7, 2006 6:51 pm|
|Mathieu Bouchard||May 7, 2006 8:37 pm|
|geiger||May 8, 2006 3:20 am|
|geiger||May 8, 2006 3:28 am|
|Hans-Christoph Steiner||May 8, 2006 6:21 am|
|Krzysztof Czaja||May 8, 2006 4:58 pm|
|Mathieu Bouchard||May 8, 2006 10:51 pm|
|Frank Barknecht||May 9, 2006 12:42 am|
|Steffen||May 14, 2006 4:01 am|
|B. Bogart||Aug 26, 2006 10:45 am|
|Hans-Christoph Steiner||Aug 26, 2006 11:04 am|
|Subject:||Pd social aspects (Re: [PD] PDDP meeting?)|
|Date:||May 7, 2006 6:15:22 am|
There are some general things I have to say regarding this thread, which is, btw a discussion that I think is very important for Pd.
First, I do not think that technical reasons led to the fact that jMax got abandoned. IMO its social reasons. When I first met Miller just after he started in San Diego he still planned to continue on the IRCAM version of MAX. IRCAM MAX was commercial software so this was not possible, that is how Pd came into being (with a free license).
jMax died because it was not possible to get the community support, and when they had no money any more it just got closed. At that time probably most people were already using Pd or both, so it was not a big loss. Maybe it was a mistake to make jMax free software, and therefore compete with Pd directly. But maybe it was its salvation at that time.
This can't happen with PD because there is no money behind its development. Its based on a different development model.
This is also a drawback, of course. Some things can't be fixed easily because it would require a big amount of work, money to buy computer systems, and it might make other parts of the system unstable or incompatible.
If Miller had to stop to develop Pd now, we would soon see several versions of Pd popping up, competing against each other. This is already the case actually, it is not bad for PD per se, but it can be a terrible loss of energy. Well, I have my own version of Pd for PDA, so I shouldn't complain, but still I think it is important to focus our efforts.
This is also why I agree with Chris McCormick. I don't understand PD develpers who complain about missing features, or how main Pd development is handled. Its noone else but themselves who can change this situation. Miller has always been very open to contributions and he includes patches when time permits and also explains why he doesn't include others.
On Sun, 7 May 2006, Arie van Schutterhoef wrote:
x86-based SIMD didn't do floats until SSE1 and 3DNOW, but it doesn't matter because jMax never used it and Miller's Pd never used it.
-Which is not what I'm saying, if you read more carefully. It's not even a point I'm trying to make.
Does MAX/MSP use SSE and/or Altivec in its signal processing ?
-Both are used (on WindowsMax and OSX-Max).
I think that the client/server separation is very worthwhile.
-I think so too.
The dropouts are caused by not enough separation and/or by buffer-clogging.
-Completely agree on that one too. So are in the context of jMax are we talking about crappy programming or crappy design?
on the other hand with current dualcore processors becoming standard for the next couple of years, maybe it ought to be revived.>
You must be kidding. Pd already has a separate GUI thread (wish pd.tk). The only advantage jMax has, is that all its GUI lives in that thread,
-Indeed. Making it probably a better design, because it isn't in the way.
whereas Pd does lots of unnecessary coupling.
The amount of work left to make Pd cleanly client-server-separated is almost nothing.
-So why isn't that done?
Then there's the fact that at this point, the issue of getting audio running fast enough, has already disappeared.
-To what extent?
If it wasn't the case, many more people would spend time on Pd devel_0_39, which can be up to 4 times faster than Miller's Pd (except for fft~ in which case it's even faster).
-Maybe people don't find that an issue.
Bringing in a second processor is thus not that useful.
-Depends what you're trying to do, I guess...
I think, by the way, IRCAM could have supported it slightly more decently with their lists.
What do you mean?
-I remember that many times awkward questions were avoided or not even answered. Also that the complete archive has been removed is rather odd to say the least.
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` |Schreck Ensemble . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +
` |# -laboratory for live electro-acoustic music- # | | http://www.schreck.nl/ | | http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/ | ` *===========================================================++ ` |Compositions http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/compo.html | ` |Samples http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/samp.html | ` |Patches http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/pat.html | ` |Videos http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/video.html |
` |Scores http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/scores.html |
*===========================================================++ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .....................................................................