28 messages in net.sourceforge.lists.courier-sqwebmail[sqwebmail] Re: Spelling and other te...
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oth...@freeshell.orgDec 21, 2004 1:57 pm 
Brian CandlerDec 28, 2004 3:11 am 
Sam VarshavchikDec 28, 2004 4:16 am 
Paul L. AllenDec 28, 2004 11:32 am 
oth...@freeshell.orgDec 28, 2004 7:45 pm 
oth...@freeshell.orgDec 28, 2004 8:45 pm 
oth...@freeshell.orgDec 28, 2004 9:02 pm 
Paul L. AllenDec 29, 2004 3:28 am 
oth...@freeshell.orgDec 29, 2004 11:39 am 
Paul L. AllenDec 29, 2004 1:18 pm 
oth...@freeshell.orgDec 29, 2004 2:34 pm 
Paul L. AllenDec 29, 2004 4:50 pm 
oth...@freeshell.orgDec 29, 2004 9:08 pm 
Brian CandlerDec 30, 2004 1:10 am 
Brian CandlerDec 30, 2004 2:29 am 
Paul L. AllenDec 30, 2004 9:56 am 
Paul L. AllenDec 30, 2004 12:15 pm 
oth...@freeshell.orgDec 30, 2004 2:39 pm 
oth...@freeshell.orgDec 30, 2004 3:14 pm 
Paul L. AllenDec 30, 2004 4:07 pm 
Brian CandlerDec 31, 2004 2:40 am 
Laurent WacrenierDec 31, 2004 3:00 am 
Paul L. AllenDec 31, 2004 3:41 am 
Brian CandlerDec 31, 2004 4:11 am 
Pawel TeczaDec 31, 2004 4:47 am 
Laurent WacrenierDec 31, 2004 5:22 am 
Brian CandlerJan 1, 2005 4:45 am 
Brian CandlerJan 1, 2005 5:17 am 
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Subject:[sqwebmail] Re: Spelling and other templates (Was: stale processes and m17n)Actions...
From:Paul L. Allen (pl@softflare.com)
Date:Dec 31, 2004 3:41:13 am
List:net.sourceforge.lists.courier-sqwebmail

Brian Candler writes:

On Fri, Dec 31, 2004 at 12:07:38AM +0000, Paul L. Allen wrote:

This isn't a race you know, and even if it were, it wouldn't be against Exchange - it would be against other open source software products.

It is a race, and it's against Exchange.

Let people install Exchange if they want to. Each person has to make their own decision as to what meets their performance/price/supportability needs sufficiently. But for someone who wants to build a mailserver with 100,000 (or even 10,000) mailboxes, Exchange simply won't cut it.

Our public servers may have that many, but the dedicated servers we put in have a lot less. However, people see what Exchange has to offer and ask why our system doesn't do that. It doesn't matter that the feature is worthless, or that the system is unreliable, they want Exchange. It is, after all, the "industry standard."

The "competition", if you want to look at it like that, is against other open source packages. If someone writes a free IMAP server which is more robust, more featureful and more scalable than courier-imap, then I'll probably switch to it.

And so would I, if by then we still had any customers who found "not Exchange" to be acceptable as a mail server. Their decision is not based upon technical merits but upon cosmetics and tick lists. One of our guys who deals with on-site installation/maintenance replaced a dedicated mail server with Exchange. He was impressed with it because OWA made the webmail look exactly like using Outlook so people didn't have to learn how to drive a webmail that worked differently from Outlook. And the people who were using it were impressed too. Exchange is no longer a simple mail/webmail/imap/pop3 server, it has scheduling and groupware that is integrated with Outlook - I'm not saying these are things I want or would use but our customers do.

The race is to get Open Source products that come close enough to duplicating Exchange functionality and can be installed painlessly enough that they are economically viable.

Not because the alternative is superior or because its additional features are actually useful but because we can't match the tick list. People are willing to pay big money for Exchange just so that webmail looks exactly like Outlook because they can't cope with the unfamiliar.

Good, then let them.

In an ideal world it would not concern me if they switched to Exchange. In this world, however, building dedicated mail servers around qmail/ courier-imap/sqwebmail is one of the things that pays my wages. Since I like getting paid, I would prefer them not to switch to Exchange.

If we cannot at least make it relatively painless for people to find a readme in sqwebmail about adding extra dictionaries we're going to lose ground even faster. "Let me see. I can pay an expensive programmer to spend a day learning about sqwebmail and figuring out how to add stuff like dictionaries for French, or I can pay a point-and-click-monkey to spend an hour installing Exchange and get all that and more. Decisions, decisions."

You can't be serious. Anyone in that category won't even be looking at Unix-based solutions.

Yes I am serious, because management here is coming to the conclusion that we can't make money out of selling dedicated mail servers unless we put in Exchange. And that in the longer term we'll probably have to switch the public servers to Exchange too, just to give people the features they think they want (but don't actually need). If we don't then our customers will switch to somebody else that can offer Exchange-based mail, even if they charge more for it.

Perhaps if sqwebmail were offered as a one-click install for Windows then it would be different (bundled with Apache and an MTA, of course)

Only if the package included all the other stuff that Exchange does. And it does it using Exchange's own protocols rather than requiring each workstation to install custom connectors. Exchange is like a SUV - it's big, it eats resources, and it's likely to fall over at any time (SUVs are very likely to roll over in a sharp turn) but it's what everyone wants because of successful marketing. It's no good saying the vehicle you offer does the job far better if everyone wants a SUV.

writing something from scratch. If you're really big and owned by Microsoft, like Hotmail, you can run Exchange and glibly ignore the per-seat licence fees because they don't apply.

Sorry? I thought that Hotmail doesn't use Exchange at all. That's simply because it can't scale that far.

We know it used to use qmail before the takeover. We know Bill has at least twice tried (and failed) to switch it to Exchange. The MTA doesn't explicitly identify itself, and it does not show some of the subtler signatures of qmail either. It's hard to tell what it is. Could be a modified qmail, or Exchange with the identifiers filed off, or Postfix with the identifiers filed off, or... The point was that if Hotmail is running Exchange, or ever manages to do so, the per-seat licence costs would make their service uneconomic if it weren't for the fact they'll get a special deal.

The harder it is then the more likely that eventually Sqwebmail usage will decline to the point where Sam can no longer afford to work on it, and it dies.

That is a risk, but mitigated by the open source licence. The project can fork and/or be taken over by new maintainers (as has just happened with fetchmail)

Which will only happen if there is sufficient demand for it to make it wortwhile. Even if you're rich and don't have to work for a living you're unlikely to devote effort to something that almost nobody uses. And if nobody is working on it, even fewer people will use it as time goes by, so it's a vicious circle.