atom feed88 messages in net.php.lists.internalsRe: [PHP-DEV] Proposal: Array syntax
FromSent OnAttachments
Christian SchneiderNov 4, 2003 3:32 pm.patch
Rasmus LerdorfNov 4, 2003 5:06 pm 
Ken TossellNov 4, 2003 5:09 pm 
Andi GutmansNov 5, 2003 12:49 am 
Michael WalterNov 5, 2003 12:59 am 
Michael WalterNov 5, 2003 1:03 am 
Kouber SaparevNov 5, 2003 1:47 am 
Christian SchneiderNov 5, 2003 2:06 am 
s0niXNov 5, 2003 2:43 am 
Ford, Mike [LSS]Nov 5, 2003 3:20 am 
Mike RobinsonNov 5, 2003 3:26 am 
Dirkjan OchtmanNov 5, 2003 3:45 am 
Cesare D'AmicoNov 5, 2003 4:02 am 
Alexey TrunyovNov 5, 2003 4:34 am 
Antony DovgalNov 5, 2003 4:59 am 
Marco TabiniNov 5, 2003 5:04 am 
Ilia AlshanetskyNov 5, 2003 5:06 am 
Magnus MäättäNov 5, 2003 5:07 am 
Derick RethansNov 5, 2003 5:18 am 
Christian SchneiderNov 5, 2003 7:34 am 
Nicolas ToperNov 5, 2003 7:47 am 
Ilia AlshanetskyNov 5, 2003 7:56 am 
Antony DovgalNov 5, 2003 8:03 am 
Rasmus LerdorfNov 5, 2003 8:21 am 
Christian SchneiderNov 5, 2003 8:30 am 
Andrey HristovNov 5, 2003 8:40 am 
Ilia AlshanetskyNov 5, 2003 8:47 am 
Andi GutmansNov 5, 2003 8:47 am 
Jani TaskinenNov 5, 2003 8:49 am 
Ford, Mike [LSS]Nov 5, 2003 8:50 am 
Marco TabiniNov 5, 2003 8:52 am 
Christian SchneiderNov 5, 2003 8:54 am 
George SchlossnagleNov 5, 2003 8:58 am 
Jani TaskinenNov 5, 2003 8:59 am 
Christian SchneiderNov 5, 2003 9:00 am 
Ford, Mike [LSS]Nov 5, 2003 9:00 am 
Marco TabiniNov 5, 2003 9:01 am 
Marco TabiniNov 5, 2003 9:05 am 
Ford, Mike [LSS]Nov 5, 2003 9:07 am 
Ford, Mike [LSS]Nov 5, 2003 9:09 am 
Marco TabiniNov 5, 2003 9:18 am 
Romans MalinovskisNov 5, 2003 9:19 am 
Andi GutmansNov 5, 2003 9:20 am 
StephNov 5, 2003 9:25 am 
Andrey HristovNov 5, 2003 9:25 am 
Ilia AlshanetskyNov 5, 2003 9:25 am 
Marco TabiniNov 5, 2003 9:30 am 
Derick RethansNov 5, 2003 9:33 am 
40 later messages
Subject:Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal: Array syntax
From:Antony Dovgal (tony@phpclub.net)
Date:Nov 5, 2003 8:03:40 am
List:net.php.lists.internals

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 16:34:52 +0100 Christian Schneider <csch@cschneid.com> wrote:

I'm just trying to improve PHP. And I write _a lot_ of PHP code, so I have some idea about where the syntax could be improved IMHO.

changing the syntax is not the best way imho.

PHP is a mix of C, Perl and other styles anyway, why deny it? It's strength is that it's a pragmatic and simple language but that doesn't mean that nothing should be changed ever.

because PHP is PHP. in C you can use assembler code insertions, but it doesn't mean, that PHP's
strength should be powered by allowing assembler insertions. if in Python you can create new array, using $a = [];, it doesn't mean, that PHP
should be able to do it in the same way.

I don't want to break existing programs. And I don't care about range() (or even list() too much for that matter), I just recognize the fact the I'm using a lot of array() and it is both unnecessarily hard to write _and_ read. Saying that array() works well and [] is incomprehensible just does not match my experience. Both for myself (some years of programming experience) and for newbies. I saw no difference teaching people to initialize an array with array() or []. Someone new to programming has to memorize that he has to write $a = array() (and not $a = new array() for example) anyway, $a = [] would be just as easy IMHO.

this is very confusing way to improve PHP. you will type 2 symbols instead of 7, but you forget, that you use almost same
syntax for indexing arrays. do you agree, that $a[] = ''; and $a = []; look almost similar for newbies?

any reasons to change such fundamental things just because version number changes from 4 to 5.

So why was the whole private/public/static/throw/catch thing introduced? Following your logic people who want this should use Java. I'm much more worried about code getting unreadable because of these extensions actually. It turned PHP into a much more complex language but since it is all optional I don't mind. But to deny some simple (and backward compatible) syntactic sugar to people who just want an easy to use language seems missing the point to me.

you're misrepresenting my words. PHP didn't have some kind of private/public/static/throw/catch before. and you're trying to invent new kind of wheel, 'cause you think common model of
wheel is "ugly".

I like some of the Python syntax. But some of it is cumbersome. Same with PHP. But I think PHP is closer to what I want so what's wrong with trying to improve it where it's possible (and easily done)?

agree, and you can easily make PHP code not readable with such improvements. again, I can't understand why PHP should have another way of creating new
arrays. there are so many things you can improve in PHP - why did you choose to change
the syntax?

so, I'm still strongly against such improvements.