| From | Sent On | Attachments |
|---|---|---|
| 53 earlier messages | ||
| Richard Zander | Feb 18, 2012 9:59 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 18, 2012 11:33 am | |
| Curtis Clark | Feb 18, 2012 6:45 pm | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 18, 2012 8:59 pm | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 19, 2012 12:36 am | |
| Roderic Page | Feb 19, 2012 5:48 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 19, 2012 7:36 am | |
| Roderic Page | Feb 19, 2012 8:09 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 19, 2012 8:58 am | |
| Curtis Clark | Feb 19, 2012 8:59 am | |
| Curtis Clark | Feb 19, 2012 9:49 am | |
| Frederick W. Schueler | Feb 19, 2012 10:29 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 19, 2012 12:14 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 12:45 pm | |
| Bob Mesibov | Feb 19, 2012 2:23 pm | |
| Walker, Ken | Feb 19, 2012 2:36 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 2:38 pm | |
| Bob Mesibov | Feb 19, 2012 2:54 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 2:56 pm | |
| Walker, Ken | Feb 19, 2012 3:08 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 4:05 pm | |
| Bob Mesibov | Feb 19, 2012 4:07 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 4:38 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 5:09 pm | |
| Curtis Clark | Feb 19, 2012 5:18 pm | |
| Bob Mesibov | Feb 19, 2012 5:33 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 5:50 pm | |
| Kenneth Kinman | Feb 19, 2012 7:27 pm | |
| Weakley, Alan | Feb 19, 2012 7:47 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 7:50 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 7:52 pm | |
| Curtis Clark | Feb 19, 2012 8:13 pm | |
| Stephen Thorpe | Feb 19, 2012 8:22 pm | |
| Dr.B.J.Tindall | Feb 19, 2012 11:08 pm | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 19, 2012 11:52 pm | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 19, 2012 11:56 pm | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 20, 2012 1:02 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 20, 2012 1:24 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 20, 2012 1:27 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 20, 2012 1:32 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 20, 2012 3:07 am | |
| Curtis Clark | Feb 20, 2012 7:28 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 20, 2012 8:55 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 20, 2012 9:07 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 20, 2012 9:40 am | |
| Richard Zander | Feb 20, 2012 10:35 am | |
| Wolfgang Lorenz | Feb 20, 2012 11:03 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 20, 2012 11:09 am | |
| David Campbell | Feb 20, 2012 11:41 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 21, 2012 1:03 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 21, 2012 8:26 am | |
| Francisco Welter-Schultes | Feb 21, 2012 8:48 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 22, 2012 12:30 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 22, 2012 12:44 am | |
| Adam Cotton | Feb 22, 2012 3:00 am | |
| Francisco Welter-Schultes | Feb 22, 2012 3:11 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 23, 2012 12:27 am | |
| Wolfgang Lorenz | Feb 23, 2012 2:12 am | |
| Francisco Welter-Schultes | Feb 23, 2012 3:31 am | |
| Kim van der Linde | Feb 23, 2012 3:43 am | |
| Francisco Welter-Schultes | Feb 23, 2012 4:02 am | |
| Dr Brian Taylor | Feb 23, 2012 4:29 am | |
| Francisco Welter-Schultes | Feb 23, 2012 5:51 am | |
| Kim van der Linde | Feb 23, 2012 6:12 am | |
| Dr Brian Taylor | Feb 23, 2012 8:06 am | |
| Fran...@dmns.org | Feb 23, 2012 10:04 am | |
| Richard Zander | Feb 23, 2012 10:21 am | |
| Wolfgang Lorenz | Feb 23, 2012 10:50 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 24, 2012 12:28 am | |
| Bradley Boyle | Feb 24, 2012 11:19 am | |
| Richard Pyle | Feb 24, 2012 11:33 am | |
| Fran...@dmns.org | Feb 24, 2012 12:08 pm | |
| Dr.B.J.Tindall | Feb 25, 2012 12:30 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 25, 2012 12:33 am | |
| Paul van Rijckevorsel | Feb 25, 2012 12:36 am | |
| Francisco Welter-Schultes | Feb 25, 2012 4:18 am | |
| Michael Schmitt | Feb 27, 2012 1:55 am | |
| Subject: | Re: [Taxacom] validation of taxon names | |
|---|---|---|
| From: | Paul van Rijckevorsel (dipt...@freeler.nl) | |
| Date: | Feb 21, 2012 1:03:32 am | |
| List: | edu.ku.nhm.mailman.taxacom | |
The end user is interested in the scientific name of a taxon, and the Glossary of the zoological Code is clear about this aspect. The zoological Code regards specific and subspecific names (jointly: species-group names) as 'names' as well but this is an internal, zoological nomenclatural matter.
What I am confused about here is not the scientific name of a taxon, which the Glossary is clear about. The Glossary also appears to be clear that these scientific names of taxa are available names. So, I can envision the following possibilities: 1) the name of a species, the binomen, is an available name, but the specific name is not an available name 2) the name of a species, the binomen, is an available name, and the specific name is also an available name 3) the name of a species, the binomen, is an available name, but although the specific name is both a name and available, it is not an available name (of course, this would be strange, but no stranger than other things that are in the zoological Code).
and apparently 4) the name of a species, the binomen, is not an available name, but the specific name is an available name?
As to the comparison between botany and zoology, whenever a species-group name can be an available name there is a absolute break down (even if only local, in some cases) between the two. In botany a "validly published name" is always the "scientific name of a taxon"; it is unimaginable that a specific epithet (or any other epithet), by itself, can be a) either a name or b) validly published. This divide is, of course, even bigger because in zoology a specific name may exist even if it never was part of a complete scientific name of a taxon, a binomen (11.9.3.1). This is really, really weird, from a botanical nomenclatural perspective!
Paul
From: "Richard Pyle" <deep...@bishopmuseum.org> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [Taxacom] validation of taxon names
Thank you. I will try and digest this. It does not seem to make sense that the name of a species (the binomen) is not available (except in the case of secondary homonymy),
That's not exactly what I said. The availability of a name of a species (the epithet) is independent of the genus with which it is combined, except in the (relatively rare) case of species-group homonymy.
The confusion is not about availability or homonymy. The confusion comes back to my hints over several recent posts that the definition of "a name" is not as consistent throughout the taxonomic community as you seem to suggest. To most botanists, "a name" is a combination. That's fine (binomial nomenclature, and all). But not all zoologists see it this way; especially when applying rules of the Code. While you certainly can make the argument that the full combination is "the name", one can also make an equally legitimate argument that the placement of a species epithet within a genus is an act of taxonomy/classification, not nomenclature. It only bumps into nomenclature (from the perspective of many zoologists) when homonymy is at play.
Note: one part about the zoological code that is confusing is that it uses the word "name" both in the sense of the binomial, and in the sense of the within-group name element.
The glossary definition of the unqualified "name" is not particularly helpful:
name, n. (1) (general) A word, or ordered sequence of words, conventionally used to denote and identify a particular entity (e.g. a person, place, object, concept). (2) Equivalent to scientific name (q.v.). (3) An element of the name of a species-group taxon: see generic name, subgeneric name, specific name, subspecific name.
#1 is almost useless; #3 defines "name" as being the individual elements; and #2 refers to "scientific name":
scientific name Of a taxon: a name that conforms to Article 1, as opposed to a vernacular name. The scientific name of a taxon at any rank above the species group consists of one name; that of a species, two names (a binomen); and that of a subspecies, three names (a trinomen) [Arts. 4 and 5]. A scientific name is not necessarily available.
...which says that a scientific name cosnsists of one, two, or three names (seems a bit circular to me that a name=scientific name; but a scientific name = 1 name, 2 names, or 3 names....)
In any case, many botanists seem to think that the botanical approach (combinations are "the name") is much more stable, sensible, and logical. Funnily enough, many zoologists feel the same way about the zoological approach. The naïve taxonomists make the mistake of thinking that the "other guys" are being naïve (somewhat ironic). But the people who really think about and understand both approaches, realize that they are both right, and they are both wrong, to about equal degrees. Proof of this is that both approaches have been about equally successful, and equally problematic, for the last couple of centuries.
but certainly if species-group names are available names there is even less correspondence between the zoological and botanical Codes than I had supposed.
I suspect that you are probably right about that.
In that case it would be a lot safer to say something like "a validly published name in botany is more or less comparable with an available name in zoology; in some cases fairly closely and in some cases not at all".
I would tend to agree with that statement, although "not at all" might be a bit strong. I would replace it with "...and in some cases, much less so."
Aloha, Rich
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