107 messages in org.apache.communityRe: Rules for Revolutionaries
FromSent OnAttachments
Rodent of Unusual Size04 Nov 2002 11:08 
Vadim Gritsenko04 Nov 2002 12:47 
Rodent of Unusual Size04 Nov 2002 13:10 
John Keyes04 Nov 2002 15:25 
Sam Ruby04 Nov 2002 16:33 
Rodent of Unusual Size05 Nov 2002 17:37 
Peter Donald05 Nov 2002 18:25 
Costin Manolache05 Nov 2002 19:33 
Aaron Bannert05 Nov 2002 21:27 
Aaron Bannert05 Nov 2002 21:30 
Ted Husted06 Nov 2002 05:15 
Rodent of Unusual Size06 Nov 2002 18:55 
Daniel Rall06 Nov 2002 22:12 
Sam Ruby07 Nov 2002 03:43 
Rodent of Unusual Size07 Nov 2002 04:11 
Ted Husted07 Nov 2002 04:31 
Stefano Mazzocchi07 Nov 2002 05:33 
Sam Ruby07 Nov 2002 08:01 
Rodent of Unusual Size07 Nov 2002 09:27 
Costin Manolache07 Nov 2002 12:39 
Rich Bowen08 Nov 2002 04:36 
Rodent of Unusual Size08 Nov 2002 09:06 
Sam Ruby08 Nov 2002 13:50 
Costin Manolache08 Nov 2002 14:05 
Rodent of Unusual Size08 Nov 2002 14:46 
Costin Manolache08 Nov 2002 15:11 
Stefano Mazzocchi08 Nov 2002 15:48 
Craig R. McClanahan08 Nov 2002 16:02 
Andrew C. Oliver08 Nov 2002 16:57 
Andrew C. Oliver08 Nov 2002 17:03 
Martin van den Bemt08 Nov 2002 17:14 
Rodent of Unusual Size08 Nov 2002 17:48 
Rodent of Unusual Size08 Nov 2002 17:51 
James Taylor08 Nov 2002 17:56 
Craig R. McClanahan08 Nov 2002 17:58 
Craig R. McClanahan08 Nov 2002 18:05 
Sam Ruby08 Nov 2002 18:17 
Andrew C. Oliver08 Nov 2002 18:38 
Andrew C. Oliver08 Nov 2002 18:40 
Ceki Gülcü09 Nov 2002 00:29 
Jeff Turner09 Nov 2002 02:44 
Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 03:27 
Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 04:13 
Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 04:25 
Andrew C. Oliver09 Nov 2002 04:27 
Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 04:31 
Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 04:35 
Andrew C. Oliver09 Nov 2002 04:36 
Danny Angus09 Nov 2002 04:39 
Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 04:50 
Martin van den Bemt09 Nov 2002 05:21 
Ceki Gülcü09 Nov 2002 06:28 
Costin Manolache09 Nov 2002 08:50 
Sam Ruby09 Nov 2002 09:29 
Costin Manolache09 Nov 2002 10:23 
Ceki Gülcü09 Nov 2002 10:49 
Ceki Gülcü09 Nov 2002 10:58 
Stefano Mazzocchi09 Nov 2002 12:33 
James Duncan Davidson09 Nov 2002 15:29 
James Duncan Davidson09 Nov 2002 15:37 
Chuck Murcko09 Nov 2002 18:08 
Rodent of Unusual Size10 Nov 2002 05:29 
Ceki Gülcü10 Nov 2002 06:22 
James Duncan Davidson10 Nov 2002 09:14 
Stefano Mazzocchi11 Nov 2002 19:05 
Stephen McConnell11 Nov 2002 19:26 
Sam Ruby11 Nov 2002 19:41 
Jeff Turner11 Nov 2002 19:43 
Stephen McConnell11 Nov 2002 19:43 
Ovidiu Predescu11 Nov 2002 21:34 
Ovidiu Predescu11 Nov 2002 21:36 
Sam Ruby11 Nov 2002 21:51 
Jeff Turner11 Nov 2002 23:18 
Andrew C. Oliver12 Nov 2002 07:18 
Stefano Mazzocchi12 Nov 2002 07:25 
Martin van den Bemt12 Nov 2002 08:19 
Joe Schaefer12 Nov 2002 08:20 
Jeff Turner12 Nov 2002 08:20 
Andrew C. Oliver12 Nov 2002 08:28 
Henri Yandell12 Nov 2002 08:41 
Costin Manolache12 Nov 2002 09:58 
Costin Manolache12 Nov 2002 10:14 
Craig R. McClanahan12 Nov 2002 11:38 
Andrew C. Oliver12 Nov 2002 12:18 
Glenn Nielsen12 Nov 2002 19:05 
Stephen McConnell13 Nov 2002 02:23 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 03:49 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 03:55 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 04:02 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 04:20 
Stephen McConnell13 Nov 2002 04:21 
Stefano Mazzocchi13 Nov 2002 06:44 
Joe Schaefer13 Nov 2002 07:38 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 08:50 
Costin Manolache13 Nov 2002 10:01 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 10:16 
Sam Ruby13 Nov 2002 11:16 
Stefano Mazzocchi13 Nov 2002 11:44 
Costin Manolache13 Nov 2002 12:11 
Rodent of Unusual Size13 Nov 2002 17:38 
Roy T. Fielding14 Nov 2002 09:55 
Daniel Rall15 Nov 2002 14:44 
Sam Ruby15 Nov 2002 19:28 
Andrew C. Oliver15 Nov 2002 20:10 
Henri Gomez18 Nov 2002 09:57 
Henri Gomez18 Nov 2002 10:01 
Henri Gomez18 Nov 2002 23:26 
Subject:Re: Rules for Revolutionaries
From:Costin Manolache (cos@covalent.net)
Date:11/09/2002 08:50:06 AM
List:org.apache.community

Ceki,

I think you got your analogy mixed up completely :-)

The communism is characterized by dictatorship ( not always benevolent). Most western countries are characterized by democracy.

The communism didn't fall because of ideology - I can tell you the ideology had little to do with the reality. At least in some countries it fell because of centralized economy, abuses, etc.

As for the "liberal ideology" - that's how apache has worked so far. Every committer has a vote and a veto ( and unfortunately the veto can turn anyone into a small dictator ).

Costin

On Sat, 2002-11-09 at 00:29, Ceki Gülcü wrote:

I keep wondering why you keep bringing up Duncan's Whoa Bessie... mail. I mean this one:

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=ant-dev&m=97712718421034&w=2

Is it just for historical purposes? Is it because Duncan expresses interesting ideas with eloquence? Sure, Duncan may have been wrong in the Ant context but that should not discredit his ideas altogether.

The liberal ideas expressed by Stefano, Sam and to some extent Costin are very inspiring and definitely please a wider audience than Duncan's ideas defending the actions of a selfish pig as he puts hit. (No, I don't think that Duncan is a selfish pig and you shouldn't either.)

However, liberal ideologies are just that, ideologies. While Duncan's theory of benevolent dictators might not find favor in the eyes of this public, we should not discard it as being contrary to the Apache way. We should instead recognize it as being a legitimate way of development. It may even be the dominant way of development at Apache under disguise.

In addition, it is much easier to stand up and talk about the interest of the community than the interests of individuals less you come off as supporting selfish pigs or being a selfish pig yourself.

On a wider scale, it was very hard for the West to fight Communism because the communist ideology sells much better to the unprivileged. Yet 75 years later, the West won, not because of its persuasiveness but because it had much more to show on the store shelves than the communists. Communism is a great idea but it doesn't work. Capitalism is hard to sell but it ends up having better results on the long run.

Coming back to Jakarta, I am not suggesting that anyone is at fault. All I am suggesting is that we to stop trashing the work achieved by individuals acting as clear leaders. Leadership is not bad per se.

I may be stating the obvious here. So be it.

At 11:01 07.11.2002 -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:

I differ with that rendition, and believe that it is harmful to the community for it to be propogated.

Duncan rejoined Ant and was immediately accepted as a committer. He started work on an internal fork named "AntEater". This went on for a short while, until another fork came along named "AntFarm". At that point, Duncan said "Whoa Bessie" and started to put forward a case that he had a unique right to determine what codebase bore the Ant name.

This lead up to a PMC meeeting with Brian and Roy in attendance where it was affirmed that the name of a project went with the expressed wishes of a majority of commmitters to that project. This has been the policy that we have followed in Jakarta ever since.

References:

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=ant-dev&m=97712718421034&w=2 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=97712745500023&r=1&w=2 http://jakarta.apache.org/site/pmc/01-01-17-meeting-minutes.html

- Sam Ruby

P.S. It is my understanding that what is now Apache HTTPD 2.0 is also the result of a number of forks, one of which ultimately emerged as being the one accepted by the community.

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-- Ceki

TCP implementations will follow a general principle of robustness: be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others. -- Jon Postel, RFC 793

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