On Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 07:08:24PM -0800, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote:

I wanted something more explicit, like newbies-chat, at the outset, so of course I would support a change now.

Exactly. I would say to anyone who claims this list should be used for questions, that one of the purposes of this list is to keep your chatter out of the other lists until you learn that it is essential to abide by list charters and develop an attitude of willingness to cooperate in an established team. The other lists would treat you very rudely indeed if you tried this sort of snottyness there. Newbies has space to tolerate and forgive anyone who's willing to learn, so it's a good place to learn proper mailing list use without getting an egg-splattered face that lasts for life.

I can't guarantee that changing the name will fix our problems, but it will give a firmer foundation on which to demand that the restrictions which have always existed be adhered to. Just as importantly, it would save some new members who don't read the info from losing face on the first day, a big turn-off for insecure people.

When the list was created I warned that linux-newbies is for questions so people coming from linux might assume freebsd-newbies is the same. Many more people are coming over from linux now, and naturally bringing this name-based assumption with them.

I do take your point, Jonathan, that if they're not going to have the decency to read what's in front of them and go along with the established rules, it's not worth turning the world upside down to change something that will probably make little difference. In your position I would probably have been reluctant to make a change.

I would point out, though, that some of the worst offenders over the years have been experienced people who want to be adored for giving (bad) technical support advice to grateful underlings but don't want to do it properly in -questions where their own wrongs are likely to be corrected by their own peers. They not only don't read the charter, but when they are pointed to it they scream blue murder and wave the list name around in a most assertive manner, refusing to follow the charter and asking others to ignore it too. They're gurus, so they know all don't they? For some strange reason, I have had no success in getting certain well known old timers to accept that we must live by this list charter too, or getting rid of them when they mislead newbies for their own ego gratification. The list name is always wielded as a sharp excuse in these cases. Yes, even by old timers.

Note that we have had some very helpful non-technical contributions from people like Nik (writing docs) and Grog (using -questions) who do understand the purpose of this list and abide by the charter. But they too seem powerless to weed out the occasional self-styled saviour.

Setting aside an enclave for newbies to socially interact alone with their peers presents a great freedom when it is most needed. It also makes newbies vulnerable to misinformation from any intruder with a known name or an assertive tone. It can only work if the charter is upheld here as strongly as it is in the other lists. Unfortunately, when charter and name seem to contradict most will cling to the name.

Two things that many newbies want but can't get here are 1. A comfortable place to ask questions 2. A place to try answering easy questions FreeBSD-Questions is and should be both of these, and if ever it doesn't serve that purpose then the whole community must pull together to fix it. Bitching within freebsd-questions itself never got us anywhere. I believe that only newbies can say what is bad for newbies and how to make it right. FreeBSD-Newbies provides the only safe place where such issues can be discussed newbie-to-newbie without too much interference until thoughts become clear and problems, like the one currently under discussion, are resolved.

That's why I've tried not to be too involved. Although I started the list and I'm available for guidance, I prefer to leave space for newbies to work out their own needs. They seem to be saying they need a name change. It is not for me to judge their decision, but you did ask for my view.

Jonathan, while we're here... I've had trouble getting my mail through lately (two IPs here, hub sees the wrong one) so I'll tack this request on the bottom:

Could you please change the URL in the majordomo intro/info file from

to

Resource list http://www.freebsd.org/projects/newbies.html

I think the old URL used to be a symlink but now it's become 404.

TIA

--

Regards, -*Sue*-

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