|92 earlier messages|
|Vadim Gritsenko||Oct 11, 2005 8:01 pm|
|Stefano Mazzocchi||Oct 11, 2005 8:16 pm|
|Vadim Gritsenko||Oct 11, 2005 8:35 pm|
|Bertrand Delacretaz||Oct 11, 2005 11:20 pm|
|Max Pfingsthorn||Oct 12, 2005 12:31 am|
|Torsten Curdt||Oct 12, 2005 12:32 am|
|Bertrand Delacretaz||Oct 12, 2005 12:58 am|
|Sylvain Wallez||Oct 12, 2005 1:34 am|
|Carsten Ziegeler||Oct 12, 2005 2:21 am|
|Daniel Fagerstrom||Oct 12, 2005 4:52 am|
|Stefano Mazzocchi||Oct 12, 2005 8:58 am|
|Stefano Mazzocchi||Oct 12, 2005 9:01 am|
|Upayavira||Oct 12, 2005 9:20 am|
|Vadim Gritsenko||Oct 12, 2005 9:38 am|
|Stefano Mazzocchi||Oct 12, 2005 9:47 am|
|Niclas Hedhman||Oct 12, 2005 10:04 am|
|Upayavira||Oct 12, 2005 11:57 am|
|hepabolu||Oct 12, 2005 12:43 pm|
|Stefano Mazzocchi||Oct 12, 2005 2:09 pm|
|Stefano Mazzocchi||Oct 12, 2005 2:18 pm|
|Stefano Mazzocchi||Oct 12, 2005 2:20 pm|
|Sylvain Wallez||Oct 12, 2005 2:35 pm|
|Vadim Gritsenko||Oct 12, 2005 2:47 pm|
|Daniel Fagerstrom||Oct 13, 2005 2:41 am|
|Reinhard Poetz||Oct 13, 2005 3:25 am|
|Vadim Gritsenko||Oct 13, 2005 8:07 am|
|Ralph Goers||Oct 13, 2005 9:14 am|
|Vadim Gritsenko||Oct 13, 2005 9:22 am|
|Ralph Goers||Oct 13, 2005 9:44 am|
|Daniel Fagerstrom||Oct 13, 2005 9:56 am|
|Stefano Mazzocchi||Oct 13, 2005 10:01 am|
|Stefano Mazzocchi||Oct 13, 2005 10:05 am|
|Daniel Fagerstrom||Oct 13, 2005 1:59 pm|
|Joerg Heinicke||Oct 13, 2005 2:03 pm|
|Joerg Heinicke||Oct 13, 2005 2:05 pm|
|Stefano Mazzocchi||Oct 13, 2005 3:25 pm|
|Reinhard Poetz||Oct 13, 2005 10:57 pm|
|Daniel Fagerstrom||Oct 14, 2005 2:05 am|
|Vadim Gritsenko||Oct 14, 2005 6:01 am|
|Vadim Gritsenko||Oct 14, 2005 6:06 am|
|Stefano Mazzocchi||Oct 14, 2005 11:34 am|
|Vadim Gritsenko||Oct 14, 2005 11:45 am|
|Reinhard Poetz||Oct 15, 2005 1:38 am|
|Joerg Heinicke||Oct 15, 2005 1:40 am|
|Joerg Heinicke||Oct 15, 2005 1:45 am|
|Stefano Mazzocchi||Oct 15, 2005 8:53 am|
|Stefano Mazzocchi||Oct 15, 2005 9:08 am|
|Peter Hunsberger||Oct 21, 2005 10:12 pm|
|Stefano Mazzocchi||Oct 23, 2005 10:39 am|
|Peter Hunsberger||Oct 24, 2005 8:05 am|
|Subject:||Re: [RT] Is Cocoon Obsolete?|
|From:||Peter Hunsberger (pete...@gmail.com)|
|Date:||Oct 24, 2005 8:05:13 am|
On 10/23/05, Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org> wrote:
thanks so much for this, great plug for me to start.
No problem, I was wired on coffee after a nice long dinner party and unable to sleep and I had wanted to revive this thread for some time... Just a couple of comments:
I've got a gut feeling for what we need, some of it resonates with what you post here, but I've personally grown sort of attached to Cocoon, so first off, I'd have to answer the subject line with a resounding "no".
Well, I never really expected people on this list to say "yeah, it's crap, I moved on" because those who did, would not be here to read that message anyway.
Yah, I know that, but even if we did move on I'd watch this list for some time just to make sure the move really made sense and because a lot of good ideas get discussed on this list in any case.
One thing that turns me off about cocoon *today* is the pretty steep *perceived* learning curve.
Tough stuff always has long learning curves.
If packaged correctly, a naked (no blocks!) cocoon would take no more than an improved Bertrand's SuperSonic Tour. We are getting there. Slowly, painfully, and dragging our userbase with us without abrupt transitions... maybe too slow, I don't know. But I knok that revolutions are hard to manage, so I'm not unhappy about the way we are dealing with day to day evolution.
Best practices take a long time to emerge. They're also hard to identify when they do emerge. The Cocoon community probably spends some extra resources chasing dead ends (and thus part of your point), but over all I think there are few communities doing much better (I don't think the scope of Ruby on Rails is large enough to qualify yet, though it's nailed one or two best practices.)
But I think we collective lack a vision for what's coming up next and I feel this as a weakness.
Yah, I'd agree, Cocoon is big, there are a lot of competing visions involved.
<snip>good client things, academic communities discussion</snip>
What we really need?
- back end legacy connectors. I can do that with JBoss;
- 100% 24/7 rock solid transaction management and data persistence. I can do that with JBoss and some commercial (or maybe even OS) RDB;
- flexible data translation and extraction. I can do that with Saxon;
- involving, low error, client side interaction: I can do that with AJAX and the rest of the browser stuff that you mention.
So why do I want Cocoon (Java or similar glue is assumed)? Because I still need some sort of bridge from the first three things to the last.
Correct. We ended up writing our own... and it was no more than 50Kb of java code. Since for us size matters, cocoon was not able to replace that with such little space... but others were the turn offs... the fact that RDF and XML have a serious impedence mismatch.
I have been tasked to find a solution for this problem and now I think I have found one.
Go on....??? For us it's also got to do the security thing as part of the "glue"...
I need a really efficient action dispatcher. In spite of the fact that many might feel that this is one of the weakest parts of Cocoon, this is what it does better than anything else:
client action -> map to handler -> run business rules -> persist results -> (begin again)
Eventually, I expect some form of generalized Ontology traversal (perhaps the semantic Web) to handle the second step
yeah, people will push for that, but I doubt declarative inferenced processing will ever be as predictable as explicit procedures.
Should be no difference at some point (maybe a long way out): code is code, graphs are graphs, errors are errors. You can code your assumptions however you wish, but it's the unknowns that cause the problems, not the method of coding. Of course the other issue is efficiency...
but darned if I see any real AI stepping up to handle the third step.
:-) [even if I'm sure many startups will try to that... and fail ;-)]
For the foreseeable future I need some kind of multi-technology mosh pit for that process to work in and currently that looks a lot like Cocoon.
I know. It looks "a lot like" but it's not that.... and I want to bridge the two.
Sooooo, you've got something up your sleeve? Do tell...
that tells us where the real work is: object mapping, pattern recognition, etc (and the great bugbear; distributed cache management to keep the results fresh but yet responsive).
Hmmm, not sure.
The client is starting to be able to talk to the humans, next we need a way for the server to truly understand what that interaction means, requires, and implies in a global sense.
Not only, but don't worry, I'll come up with something here soon.
Ok, we won't be staring our next release cycle for at least 8 months (we're halfway into a big one at the moment).... ;-)
-- Peter Hunsberger