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69 messages in org.codehaus.groovy.devRe: [groovy-dev] Building Groovy| From | Sent On | Attachments |
|---|---|---|
| Russel Winder | Oct 6, 2008 4:36 am | |
| Mingfai | Oct 6, 2008 4:47 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 6, 2008 4:50 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 6, 2008 4:55 am | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 6, 2008 4:56 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 6, 2008 7:17 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 6, 2008 7:51 am | |
| Russel Winder | Oct 6, 2008 7:59 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 6, 2008 8:19 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 6, 2008 8:25 am | |
| Mingfai | Oct 6, 2008 8:28 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 6, 2008 8:36 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 6, 2008 1:46 pm | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 6, 2008 1:54 pm | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 6, 2008 1:54 pm | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 6, 2008 2:03 pm | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 6, 2008 2:09 pm | |
| Paul Duffy | Oct 6, 2008 7:06 pm | |
| Luke Daley | Oct 6, 2008 8:47 pm | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 6, 2008 9:44 pm | |
| Russel Winder | Oct 6, 2008 11:25 pm | |
| Russel Winder | Oct 6, 2008 11:54 pm | |
| Russel Winder | Oct 7, 2008 12:03 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 12:23 am | |
| Russel Winder | Oct 7, 2008 12:24 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 7, 2008 12:30 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 7, 2008 12:35 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 12:35 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 7, 2008 12:36 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 12:41 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 7, 2008 12:54 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 1:40 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 7, 2008 1:50 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 1:55 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 7, 2008 2:25 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 7, 2008 2:35 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 3:09 am | |
| Guillaume Laforge | Oct 7, 2008 3:12 am | |
| Russel Winder | Oct 7, 2008 3:17 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 3:24 am | |
| Paul King | Oct 7, 2008 4:04 am | |
| ma...@dockter.biz | Oct 7, 2008 4:19 am | |
| ma...@dockter.biz | Oct 7, 2008 4:25 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 4:36 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 4:39 am | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 7, 2008 5:20 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 8:19 am | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 7, 2008 9:51 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 7, 2008 10:49 am | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 7, 2008 12:03 pm | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 7, 2008 2:34 pm | |
| Luke Daley | Oct 7, 2008 3:52 pm | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 8, 2008 1:28 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 8, 2008 1:35 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 8, 2008 3:11 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 8, 2008 3:49 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 8, 2008 4:30 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 8, 2008 4:40 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 8, 2008 4:52 am | |
| Jason Dillon | Oct 8, 2008 5:21 am | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 8, 2008 6:23 am | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 8, 2008 6:47 am | |
| Jochen Theodorou | Oct 8, 2008 6:59 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 8, 2008 8:33 am | |
| Hans Dockter | Oct 8, 2008 8:43 am | |
| Paul Duffy | Oct 9, 2008 8:58 am | |
| Paul King | Oct 9, 2008 1:15 pm | |
| Danno Ferrin | Oct 9, 2008 1:27 pm | |
| Paul King | Oct 10, 2008 2:31 am |

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| Subject: | Re: [groovy-dev] Building Groovy | Actions... |
|---|---|---|
| From: | Hans Dockter (ma...@dockter.biz) | |
| Date: | Oct 6, 2008 1:46:20 pm | |
| List: | org.codehaus.groovy.dev | |
On Oct 6, 2008, at 5:19 PM, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
Of course, I'm playing the devil advocate here...
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Hans Dockter <ma...@dockter.biz> wrote:
[...]
Catch phrases, catch phrases... I could answer with another one: "why fix what ain't broken?"
I hope this is not the general attitude of Groovy in regard to refactoring ;)
Then I'd wonder why you've built Gradle on top of Groovy :-)
[...] For one there is a technological reason. The claim is that the Groovy build will be easier to maintain and that it is easier to push project automation a step further.
But there is another strong reason why I think Groovy should think about switching its build system. It is a strategic reason. There is a lot of movement in the build area at the moment. For me this is a clear indication that people are not happy with the choices they had until recently. There is the Ruby based buildr, which soon will graduate as an Apache project. There is the popular SCons based on Phyton which is trying to improve it Java build capabilities. And there is Gradle based on Groovy/Java (as Russel has pointed out, Gant's use case is different). My opinion is that build systems will soon become the most important reason after web frameworks, for Java developers to learn a dynamic language. Which dynamic language they will learn, depends on the choice of the build system. I think it is in the very interest of Groovy to do everything to push the momentum of a Groovy based build system that is capable of competing with the other ones mentioned above. I'm very confident that Gradle is able to compete anyway. I'm very happy with the feedback and adoption. But if a popular project like Groovy would say we are using Gradle that would definitely accelerate things.
In this case, it helps Gradle more than it helps Groovy, if Groovy is just seen through this as a mere "scripting glue" for build systems.
I think there are not that many Java developer's who haven't heard somehow about the existence of Groovy or Grails. If they don't use Grails, many of them simply have no clear use case for starting to get into it although they would like to. Gradle offers a valid use case to get into Groovy for many Java developers. The common story will be that people know about the broad scope of Groovy but there first active experience will be through Gradle.
Of course I have to close this mail with a phrase: This would be a win-win.
More of a win for Gradle than for Groovy here, unless we're happy with people just thinking Groovy is for build automation.
See above.
What I'm kinda waiting for are real strong technical arguments in favour of Gradle. I'm pushing you guys to be better at technical marketing here :-)
My campaign manager has already gone to bed ;). I will tell more about this tomorrow.
- Hans
-- Hans Dockter Gradle Project lead http://www.gradle.org
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