|36 earlier messages|
|Ian Hickson||Jun 24, 2008 5:07 pm|
|Frank Ellermann||Jun 24, 2008 5:28 pm|
|Frank Ellermann||Jun 24, 2008 5:36 pm|
|John Cowan||Jun 24, 2008 5:41 pm|
|Frank Ellermann||Jun 24, 2008 6:22 pm|
|Ian Hickson||Jun 24, 2008 7:01 pm|
|Ian Hickson||Jun 24, 2008 7:11 pm|
|Frank Ellermann||Jun 24, 2008 9:03 pm|
|John Cowan||Jun 24, 2008 9:50 pm|
|John Cowan||Jun 24, 2008 9:55 pm|
|Ian Hickson||Jun 24, 2008 10:33 pm|
|Julian Reschke||Jun 25, 2008 12:08 am|
|Frank Ellermann||Jun 25, 2008 12:35 am|
|Frank Ellermann||Jun 25, 2008 12:45 am|
|Ian Hickson||Jun 25, 2008 12:48 am|
|Ian Hickson||Jun 25, 2008 12:52 am|
|Felix Sasaki||Jun 25, 2008 1:43 am|
|Julian Reschke||Jun 25, 2008 1:53 am|
|Ian Hickson||Jun 25, 2008 2:06 am|
|Charles Lindsey||Jun 25, 2008 2:59 am|
|Henri Sivonen||Jun 25, 2008 3:16 am|
|Martin Duerst||Jun 25, 2008 3:43 am|
|Roy T. Fielding||Jun 25, 2008 11:19 am|
|Frank Ellermann||Jun 25, 2008 12:31 pm|
|Ian Hickson||Jun 25, 2008 1:39 pm|
|John Cowan||Jun 25, 2008 1:46 pm|
|Ian Hickson||Jun 25, 2008 1:50 pm|
|Frank Ellermann||Jun 25, 2008 3:14 pm|
|Michael A. Puls II||Jun 25, 2008 3:26 pm|
|Ian Hickson||Jun 25, 2008 3:35 pm|
|John Cowan||Jun 25, 2008 3:37 pm|
|John Cowan||Jun 25, 2008 3:47 pm|
|Frank Ellermann||Jun 25, 2008 4:20 pm|
|Ian Hickson||Jun 25, 2008 4:24 pm|
|Felix Sasaki||Jun 25, 2008 9:32 pm|
|Frank Ellermann||Jun 25, 2008 10:47 pm|
|Henri Sivonen||Jun 25, 2008 11:52 pm|
|Felix Sasaki||Jun 26, 2008 1:36 am|
|Charles Lindsey||Jun 26, 2008 3:12 am|
|Ian Hickson||Jun 26, 2008 3:32 am|
|Frank Ellermann||Jun 26, 2008 1:36 pm|
|Elliotte Harold||Jun 27, 2008 7:46 am|
|Elliotte Harold||Jun 27, 2008 8:02 am|
|Elliotte Harold||Jun 27, 2008 8:08 am|
|Julian Reschke||Jun 27, 2008 8:18 am|
|Dan Connolly||Jun 27, 2008 9:10 am|
|Frank Ellermann||Jun 28, 2008 6:16 am|
|Subject:||Re: Error handling in URIs|
|From:||Ian Hickson (ia...@hixie.ch)|
|Date:||Jun 25, 2008 1:39:43 pm|
On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Charles Lindsey wrote:
Well there's no question that it's invalid, the question is what should browsers do with it.
Essentially, it is up to the browser what it accepts.
That's one option, though it's not the way we've done things in HTML5 so far (for example we define how to parse any arbitrary byte stream).
But in the meantime, a sensible strategy for a browser whose pages were published in iso-8859-99 (whatever that might be) to accept IRIs/URIs (and especially queries) %-encoded into iso-8859-99; but also, *in addition* to convert incoming UTF-8 (whether in IRIs or %-encoded in URIs) to its own iso-8859-99.
Well, as noted before, the actual behaviour we need to spec isn't really up for debate; browsers have already more or less converged on a behaviour. The original question (now answered) was merely which spec would define this. (HTML5 now defines it.)
On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Martin Duerst wrote:
Do you have any idea of what browsers do if they get e.g. an 0x06 byte (ACK)?
Not off-hand, though it's reasonably easy to test it.
If the latter is current browser behavior, then I'm sure there are a few pages out there that actually depend on that. But how many?
I haven't done a study to examine this yet. In practice though even minute numbers end up mattering, given the scale of the Web.
I think it's also dangerous to go ahead and cast in stone any and all browser quirks (even if they are consistent across the major contenters). Where do you want to draw the line? I know all browsers in the past have made changes that made small numbers of pages stop working.
Generally with HTML5 the line is drawn at what is interoperable; when things aren't interoperable we generally pick the more sensible behaviour to cast in stone.
Related, we are now discussing what a browser has to accept, and how to process it, but do you separately say what authors should do and what not?
Can you tell me what UAs do if you just past such an IRI into the address bar? Where do they get the encoding from?
You can try it -- IE encodes the path as UTF-8 and then %-escapes it, and the encodes the query component using Windows-1252 (probably the platform default encoding) and leaves the address with raw bytes.
Safari and Mozilla encode both as UTF-8 and %-escape both.
Opera encodes the path as UTF-8 and the query as Windows-1252 (I think) and then %-escapes everything.
Also, do you realize that a few years ago, many browsers interpreted the path part in the encoding of the page? Thinking things through showed that this wouldn't work (URIs/IRIs have to work on their own, not only in a page context). That's why we wrote the IRI spec, and that's why browsers started to change. The argument of having to work independently from a page applies to query parts, too.
Why did browsers change their behaviour for paths and not query components?
Anybody who wants a query part in an URI to be in a native encoding (because that's what their server-side script expects) can use %-encoding, the same anybody who wants a path part to be in a native encoding (because that's what their server responds to) already uses %-encoding in their path part.
It's not about what authors will do on new pages. It's about how to handle legacy, unmaintained, historical documents. If we break them, we (humanity) lose part of our legacy. That would be unfortunate.
Otherwise, please tell me what the URI is that a client should send to the server for an URI such as http://example.org?������
If the page encoding is UTF-8:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
Standards, for the purposes of the HTML5 effort, are comprehensive documentation intended to make it possible to implement user agents, and are thus very much not abstractions.
That is obviously the definition of an implementation specification, not a standard.
Ok. HTML5 is an implementation specification.
This isn't intended to disparage other beliefs or opinions as to what standards should be. I have no problem with standards that, e.g., leave error handling undefined -- they are just not really relevant to the HTML5 work.
At this rate, the feeling will be mutual. Why don't you just contribute that documentation to the Mozilla website and be done?
Well, originally HTML5 was just being written on the WHATWG site, as a collaboration between Mozilla, Opera, and Apple, and with the input of several hundred contributors, which I guess is pretty much the same thing as just doing documentation on the Mozilla website and being done.
However, the W3C asked us to do the work in the W3C space. So I guess you'd have to ask the W3C team what their reasoning was.
STD 66 will never be changed to suit those implementations because there are a hundred that do it right for every one that is wrong (and those numbers improve every week as old code disappears).
How an HTML form constructs a query string is entirely defined by HTML.
Forms are a whole different problem; the issue I was raising was only related to simple links.
The contents of href="whatever" are not a URI -- they are characters that are processed as per SGML CDATA (IIRC) to transform it into a sequence of characters in the document character set, which are then considered by the HTML processor as data for the href attribute (whatever that means, it is defined by HTML, not by URI). If HTML says that the valid data is limited to a URI in the document character set (which is presumably mapped to ASCII when sent outside the DOM), then the data either conforms to STD 66 or it is invalid.
What the browser does when it sees invalid data is entirely defined by the browser and (sometimes) its configuration. It has no relevance whatsoever to the URI specification because it is not and never was a URI. The URI spec defines identifiers, not href attributes. The only result that matters is that the invalid data is not used by sending it out of the DOM, such as by sending it as an invalid HTTP request. There is no chance that HTML5 will ever exist as a finished document if it requires the sending of invalid HTTP requests as part of its HTML implementation specification.
Well right now the HTML5 spec goes out of its way to avoid sending invalid URIs to servers, though that may have to change depending on what existing content depends on.
(HTML5 isn't based on SGML, by the way.)
On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Frank Ellermann wrote:
could you quote the bits that are nonsensical?
With difficulties, the memo needs ages to load over a V.90 line, and then ages to run some scripts, until my browser asks me if I want to abort whatever it is
Apologies, I should have provided you with a link to the multipage version:
That should be more usable.
| A URL is a valid URL if at least one of the following | conditions holds: | * The URL is a valid URI reference [RFC3986].
Period, end of story, see STD 66.
| The URL is a valid IRI reference and it has no query component. | [RFC3987]
Nope, that's an IRI, not an URL (matched in bullet 1).
| The URL is a valid IRI reference and its query component | contains no unescaped non-ASCII characters. [RFC3987]
That's also an IRI, not an URL (matched in bullet 1).
There is also nothing special with query parts using unescaped characters, at least not in RFC 3987.
| The URL is a valid IRI reference and the character encoding | of the URL's Document is UTF-8. [RFC3987]
That's also an IRI, not an URL (matched in bullet 1).
I believe the confusion here is that the term "URL" as used in the HTML5 spec is intended to be a term independent of the term "URL" as used in the URI spec. I hadn't realised until recently that the URI spec actually defines the term URL as well, and had thought "URL" to be an undefined informal term.
I need a term to use in the HTML5 spec which means "a string used to identify a resource", and which can then be defined to be valid if it matches the conditions listed above. The term has to be one that authors would immediately recognise as being intended to be URI-like, yet without conflicting with existing definitions. If you disagree with the use of the term "URL" for this purpose, do you have any alternative suggestions?
Maybe use "IRL", the IRI spec. doesn't use it. Apparently what you really want is a new variant of IRI, with special rules for <iquery> parts in non-UTF-8 documents.
I think people would be more confused by the use of the term "IRL" than "URL" (with the exception of people intimiately familiar with the URI spec). Maybe the term "address" would work?
It's true that this is requiring defining things that are at odds with existing specifications, but that's mostly because those specifications aren't in fact in line with real usage.
"Real usage" is not only what numerous broken Web pages do, or what a few browsers guess. Broken URLs have caused real damage last year:
Right, that's why defining error handling is critical, and why a spec that doesn't define error handling is, frankly, irresponsible. By defining error handling, we help guarantee that any input results in a known, predictable, and most importantly _safe_ behaviour.
-- Ian Hickson U+1047E )\._.,--....,'``. fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'