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83 messages in org.w3.www-tagRe: FW: draft findings on Unsafe Meth...| From | Sent On | Attachments |
|---|---|---|
| Dan Connolly | Apr 15, 2002 8:50 am | |
| Larry Masinter | Apr 15, 2002 1:44 pm | |
| David Orchard | Apr 15, 2002 3:01 pm | |
| David Orchard | Apr 15, 2002 3:19 pm | |
| Mark Baker | Apr 15, 2002 8:00 pm | |
| Keith Moore | Apr 15, 2002 8:37 pm | |
| Scott Cantor | Apr 15, 2002 9:28 pm | |
| Edwin Khodabakchian | Apr 15, 2002 9:34 pm | |
| David Orchard | Apr 15, 2002 10:18 pm | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 15, 2002 11:17 pm | |
| Tim Bray | Apr 15, 2002 11:32 pm | |
| Mark Nottingham | Apr 16, 2002 1:01 am | |
| Tim Bray | Apr 16, 2002 1:02 am | |
| Mark Nottingham | Apr 16, 2002 1:09 am | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 16, 2002 2:11 am | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 16, 2002 3:02 am | |
| Mark Baker | Apr 16, 2002 4:54 am | |
| Williams, Stuart | Apr 16, 2002 8:22 am | |
| Keith Moore | Apr 16, 2002 8:32 am | |
| jon...@research.att.com | Apr 16, 2002 8:44 am | |
| Scott Cantor | Apr 16, 2002 8:55 am | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 16, 2002 9:40 am | |
| Mark Nottingham | Apr 16, 2002 9:42 am | |
| Hutchison, Nigel | Apr 16, 2002 9:43 am | |
| Henrik Frystyk Nielsen | Apr 16, 2002 10:48 am | |
| Bullard, Claude L (Len) | Apr 16, 2002 1:46 pm | |
| Larry Masinter | Apr 16, 2002 6:39 pm | |
| Roy T. Fielding | Apr 16, 2002 7:54 pm | |
| Larry Masinter | Apr 16, 2002 10:10 pm | |
| Graham Klyne | Apr 17, 2002 1:54 am | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 18, 2002 12:33 am | |
| Graham Klyne | Apr 18, 2002 9:11 am | |
| Alex Rousskov | Apr 18, 2002 9:30 am | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 18, 2002 9:45 am | |
| Graham Klyne | Apr 18, 2002 11:58 am | |
| Roy T. Fielding | Apr 18, 2002 3:11 pm | |
| Don Box | Apr 18, 2002 6:28 pm | |
| Mark Baker | Apr 18, 2002 8:50 pm | |
| Keith Moore | Apr 18, 2002 8:54 pm | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 18, 2002 10:00 pm | |
| Graham Klyne | Apr 19, 2002 12:53 am | |
| Bill de hÓra | Apr 19, 2002 4:18 am | |
| Roy T. Fielding | Apr 19, 2002 1:20 pm | |
| Anne Thomas Manes | Apr 22, 2002 3:23 pm | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 22, 2002 4:01 pm | |
| Anne Thomas Manes | Apr 22, 2002 8:17 pm | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 22, 2002 10:21 pm | |
| Anne Thomas Manes | Apr 23, 2002 5:36 am | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 23, 2002 12:03 pm | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 23, 2002 2:09 pm | |
| Roy T. Fielding | Apr 23, 2002 2:14 pm | |
| Bullard, Claude L (Len) | Apr 23, 2002 2:50 pm | |
| Joshua Allen | Apr 23, 2002 2:53 pm | |
| David Orchard | Apr 23, 2002 4:14 pm | |
| Keith Moore | Apr 23, 2002 5:05 pm | |
| Roy T. Fielding | Apr 23, 2002 5:14 pm | |
| Simon St.Laurent | Apr 23, 2002 5:18 pm | |
| Larry Masinter | Apr 23, 2002 6:31 pm | |
| Mark Baker | Apr 23, 2002 6:36 pm | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 23, 2002 8:03 pm | |
| Tim Bray | Apr 23, 2002 8:30 pm | |
| Dan Connolly | Apr 23, 2002 9:05 pm | |
| Joshua Allen | Apr 23, 2002 9:10 pm | |
| Anne Thomas Manes | Apr 23, 2002 9:28 pm | |
| Mark Nottingham | Apr 23, 2002 9:42 pm | |
| Jeff Bone | Apr 23, 2002 9:42 pm | |
| Joshua Allen | Apr 23, 2002 10:02 pm | |
| Paul Prescod | Apr 23, 2002 10:05 pm | |
| Joshua Allen | Apr 23, 2002 10:27 pm | |
| Joshua Allen | Apr 23, 2002 10:38 pm | |
| Mark Nottingham | Apr 23, 2002 10:57 pm | |
| Mark Nottingham | Apr 23, 2002 11:16 pm | |
| Joshua Allen | Apr 23, 2002 11:20 pm | |
| Dan Connolly | Apr 23, 2002 11:23 pm | |
| Tim Bray | Apr 23, 2002 11:56 pm | |
| Bullard, Claude L (Len) | Apr 24, 2002 7:23 am | |
| Larry Masinter | Apr 24, 2002 8:47 am | |
| Keith Moore | Apr 24, 2002 10:46 am | |
| Bullard, Claude L (Len) | Apr 24, 2002 10:56 am | |
| Aaron Swartz | Apr 24, 2002 11:27 am | |
| Mike Dierken | Apr 24, 2002 12:06 pm | |
| David Orchard | Apr 25, 2002 10:54 am | |
| Roy T. Fielding | May 5, 2002 3:38 am |
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| Subject: | Re: FW: draft findings on Unsafe Methods (whenToUseGet-7) | Actions... |
|---|---|---|
| From: | Mark Baker (dist...@acm.org) | |
| Date: | Apr 15, 2002 8:00:54 pm | |
| List: | org.w3.www-tag | |
(Reply-To set to www-...@w3.org, per your instruction)
David,
On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 03:19:26PM -0700, David Orchard wrote:
My belief is that the web has been based upon a shared information space, primarily through use of GET/POST methods. However, as we move towards more machine to machine oriented communications, with arbitrary payloads of XML, and it's focus on update/service oriented architectures, the need for a public contract for safe actions is dramatically reduced.
We've danced around this issue for far too long, so I thank you for raising it, but you are incorrect.
It is a common misconception by Web services proponents that HTTP is nothing more than a transport protocol which moves bits from A to B, where A is typically a web server, and B is typically a Web browser. It should come as no surprise that because of this view, it is felt that HTTP and the architectural style that describes it (REST) is insufficient for program to program communication. This could not be further from the truth.
Anything that can be done with other architectural styles, such as message passing, RPC, tuple spaces, etc.. can also be accomplished with REST. It just has to be done in a different way. The common use of Web services, upon which you are bumping up against with this complaint, is not REST and is not the Web. It is attempting to use a different architectural style, RPC (or some derivative), that has repeatedly demonstrated its inability to be deployed on the Internet (ONC, CORBA, DCOM, RMI).
This is a classic liason activity, where we need to strive for consensus between different views. I would be glad to participate and help in such a liason.
IMO, Web architecture - at least the core of it - is not a matter for concensus gathering. It should be extracted from running code and the lessons learned over the past 10+ years. The common use of Web services ignores virtually all of this past history.
3. I encourage interested parties in the other groups to respond to this issue. This is one of the first TAG findings, and has potential significant ramifications to the web services architecture.
You're darned tootin'! 8-)
Formal - as suggested in item #2 - and personal discussions - this item - should help foster education and consensus that have so far been illusive. I've specifically sent this note to dist-app as a call to arms on this issue.
I fully agree with Dan's draft findings, and I would be absolutely shocked, disappointed, and upset if the TAG were not able to agree on one of the single most important architectural principles on the Web. As an AC rep, I would actively pursue having the TAG disbanded if concensus could not be reached on such a fundamental issue; I would rather have no TAG, than a TAG that could not represent Web architecture within and outside the W3C, as the latter could do more damage by silencing the voices of the architects of the Web on the TAG; TimBL, Dan Connolly, and Roy Fielding.
4. A personal note. I find it disappointing that we are debating this issue.
At least we agree on that. 8-/
Cheers,
MB -- Mark Baker, Chief Science Officer, Planetfred, Inc. Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA. mba...@planetfred.com http://www.markbaker.ca http://www.planetfred.com