atom feed151 messages in org.w3.public-lodRe: Is 303 really necessary?
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Ian DavisNov 4, 2010 6:21 am 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 7:13 am 
Ian DavisNov 4, 2010 7:22 am 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 7:59 am 
Giovanni TummarelloNov 4, 2010 8:20 am 
Ian DavisNov 4, 2010 8:22 am 
Ian DavisNov 4, 2010 8:27 am 
Leigh DoddsNov 4, 2010 8:38 am 
William WaitesNov 4, 2010 8:43 am 
Giovanni TummarelloNov 4, 2010 8:50 am 
Leigh DoddsNov 4, 2010 8:53 am 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 8:55 am 
Ian DavisNov 4, 2010 8:57 am 
Ian DavisNov 4, 2010 9:06 am 
Bradley AllenNov 4, 2010 9:06 am 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 9:10 am 
Ian DavisNov 4, 2010 9:13 am 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 9:16 am 
bill...@planet.nlNov 4, 2010 9:20 am 
Ian DavisNov 4, 2010 9:22 am 
Bradley AllenNov 4, 2010 9:25 am 
Harry HalpinNov 4, 2010 9:33 am 
Robin YANGNov 4, 2010 9:51 am 
Ian DavisNov 4, 2010 9:54 am 
David WoodNov 4, 2010 9:56 am 
Mike KellyNov 4, 2010 10:12 am 
Ian DavisNov 4, 2010 10:13 am 
Patrick DurusauNov 4, 2010 10:17 am 
David WoodNov 4, 2010 10:24 am 
Patrick DurusauNov 4, 2010 10:36 am 
NathanNov 4, 2010 10:51 am 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 11:06 am 
NathanNov 4, 2010 11:07 am 
Patrick DurusauNov 4, 2010 11:08 am 
Ian DavisNov 4, 2010 11:18 am 
Ian DavisNov 4, 2010 11:24 am 
Robert FullerNov 4, 2010 11:38 am 
NathanNov 4, 2010 11:38 am 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 11:41 am 
Jörn HeesNov 4, 2010 11:45 am 
NathanNov 4, 2010 11:46 am 
Robert FullerNov 4, 2010 11:48 am 
Ian DavisNov 4, 2010 11:58 am 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 12:00 pm 
Harry HalpinNov 4, 2010 12:03 pm 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 12:07 pm 
Jörn HeesNov 4, 2010 12:10 pm 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 12:12 pm 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 12:12 pm 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 12:14 pm 
NathanNov 4, 2010 12:26 pm 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 12:36 pm 
David WoodNov 4, 2010 12:56 pm 
Hugh GlaserNov 4, 2010 12:59 pm 
David WoodNov 4, 2010 1:14 pm 
NathanNov 4, 2010 1:22 pm 
Bradley AllenNov 4, 2010 1:40 pm 
Mischa TuffieldNov 4, 2010 2:09 pm 
David BoothNov 4, 2010 3:09 pm 
David BoothNov 4, 2010 3:11 pm 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 3:24 pm 
mike amundsenNov 4, 2010 3:26 pm 
Melvin CarvalhoNov 4, 2010 3:48 pm 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 4:31 pm 
Kingsley IdehenNov 4, 2010 4:42 pm 
David BoothNov 4, 2010 5:41 pm 
mike amundsenNov 4, 2010 7:28 pm 
Leigh DoddsNov 5, 2010 2:28 am 
Michael HausenblasNov 5, 2010 2:29 am 
Leigh DoddsNov 5, 2010 2:34 am 
Leigh DoddsNov 5, 2010 2:36 am 
Leigh DoddsNov 5, 2010 2:41 am 
William WaitesNov 5, 2010 2:53 am 
Ian DavisNov 5, 2010 2:57 am 
NathanNov 5, 2010 3:05 am 
NathanNov 5, 2010 3:12 am 
Ian DavisNov 5, 2010 3:16 am 
Ian DavisNov 5, 2010 3:24 am 
NathanNov 5, 2010 3:33 am 
Ian DavisNov 5, 2010 3:40 am 
NathanNov 5, 2010 3:56 am 
Ian DavisNov 5, 2010 3:59 am 
Ian DavisNov 5, 2010 4:01 am 
NathanNov 5, 2010 4:14 am 
Mischa TuffieldNov 5, 2010 4:47 am 
Norman GrayNov 5, 2010 5:11 am 
Dave ReynoldsNov 5, 2010 5:38 am 
NathanNov 5, 2010 5:52 am 
NathanNov 5, 2010 5:56 am 
Vasiliy FaronovNov 5, 2010 6:00 am 
Vasiliy FaronovNov 5, 2010 6:33 am 
NathanNov 5, 2010 7:17 am 
David WoodNov 5, 2010 7:18 am 
Pat HayesNov 5, 2010 7:27 am 
57 later messages
Subject:Re: Is 303 really necessary?
From:Kingsley Idehen (kide@openlinksw.com)
Date:Nov 4, 2010 12:00:05 pm
List:org.w3.public-lod

On 11/4/10 12:20 PM, bill@planet.nl wrote:

Can I attempt to broker peace between Ian and Kingsley in this discussion? :-)

Because it seems to me that they are fundamentally agreeing with each other, though considering different aspects of the problem. Kingsley is taking a very broad view, Ian is addressing a specific aspect of best practices around Linked Data in the TimBL design document/HTTP/RDF sense of the word.

Accurate. Very well spotted I must say :-)

Whether it's a mandate or a best practice, it is clear to me that the consensus of general guidance on the web around Linked Data advocates the httpRange-14 distinction between 200/IR and 303/NIR(maybe) approach. So Ian's attempt to simplify this to make implementing a best practice approach to Linked Data easier seems a worthwhile discussion to have.

Yes, but see my comments (dropped a few minutes ago) re. statements made by Ian that are simply unhelpful. Example:

@iand: seems that the lod mailing list is overwhelmingly supportive of **dropping** 303 redirects #linkeddata.

How did we arrive at that?

Where was the original mandate?

On the broader scale of Linked Data, I broadly agree with Kingsley that ultimately the technologies are less important than the concept. But to implement it in practice, we need to apply at least one technology, and the HTTP/RDF approach is currently the most widely applied.

Yes-ish, but RDF a as moniker of comprehension is one-really-dead-Lazarus .

RDF was broken the day it left the station as being equivalent to RDF/XML. Conflating a Syntax and Semantics was an expensive snafu re. mind share assembly.

My one hope is that we veer away from opening up the door to FUD that simply exploits the age-old image problems of "RDF".

There is still a broader community of technically endowed practitioners in our industry that grok at least one of the following:

1. EAV 2. Graph Theory 3. Data Access 4. Data Management 5. Data Intergration 6. Distributed Object Management 7. Descriptions Logic 8. Logic in General.

None of the aforementioned individual profiles should find "Linked Data" confusing. It should be obvious.

Google has GData, Microsoft has OData, while Facebook has OpenGraph. Now we can burn cycles claiming they aren't RDF, or we can actually demonstrate separation of Syntax and Model by embracing all of these endeavors (i.e., start a conversation) and then lead each to its respective cul-de-sac (gently) as segue to unveiling the power of deeper Semantics as espoused RDF (model and associated syntaxes).

I definitely agree with Ian that the 200/303 distinction is complicated to explain to newcomers and adds an extra layer of effort in implementing Linked Data. I'm convinced so far by Ian's argument that the sky would not fall in if we return HTTP 200 together with descriptions of real world things in response to an HTTP call to their identifier.

My issue is with the mutual exclusion dimension. Why boolean OR when it should be about AND?

"Dropping" and "Mandates", don't reek of AND (inclusion) to me.

I am seeking inclusion and fundamental conceptual clarity. Let's kill off conflation driven confusion.

After all, it's just a convention that we need to agree on regarding how to deliver bits of documentation around the web. I don't think it changes any fundamental points about the semantics of RDF etc.

And I don't believe Cool URIs or any other suggestive document re. best practices is broken :-)

To try to bring the discussion back to Ian's original point - are there good reasons that force us to stick with the more complicated 303 approach?

You were never forced to use 303. Ian has somehow jumped to that conclusion.

If not, then let's keep life simple and just return HTTP 200 for HTTP URIs of real world things.

I don't think Ian is espousing that. On the other hand, I might have missed that point, thus if that's actually Ian's position, I completely disagree.

Regards,