atom feed26 messages in org.oasis-open.lists.ebsoaRe: [ebsoa] Process-Oriented Architec...
FromSent OnAttachments
Chiusano JosephApr 6, 2004 6:15 am 
David RR WebberApr 6, 2004 6:58 am 
Chiusano JosephApr 6, 2004 7:06 am 
David RR WebberApr 6, 2004 7:14 am 
Chiusano JosephApr 6, 2004 7:21 am 
David RR WebberApr 6, 2004 7:25 am 
Chiusano JosephApr 6, 2004 7:33 am 
Yunker, JohnApr 6, 2004 8:01 am 
Chiusano JosephApr 6, 2004 8:02 am 
David RR WebberApr 6, 2004 8:03 am 
David RR WebberApr 6, 2004 8:10 am 
Steve Ross-TalbotApr 6, 2004 8:10 am 
David RR WebberApr 6, 2004 8:23 am 
Duane NickullApr 6, 2004 8:26 am 
Duane NickullApr 6, 2004 8:29 am 
Chiusano JosephApr 6, 2004 8:45 am 
Mark YaderApr 6, 2004 6:39 pm 
Dale MobergApr 6, 2004 6:58 pm 
Duane NickullApr 7, 2004 8:56 am 
Duane NickullApr 7, 2004 9:02 am 
David RR WebberApr 7, 2004 11:41 am 
Chiusano JosephJun 7, 2004 10:41 am 
David RR WebberJun 7, 2004 10:45 am 
Chiusano JosephJun 7, 2004 10:55 am 
Steve Ross-TalbotJun 7, 2004 10:59 am 
David RR WebberJun 7, 2004 11:29 am 
Subject:Re: [ebsoa] Process-Oriented Architectures (POA)
From:Chiusano Joseph (chiu@bah.com)
Date:Apr 6, 2004 8:02:48 am
List:org.oasis-open.lists.ebsoa

Thanks David - I value your viewpoints (as always). My view of this may very well change in the course of our efforts, more toward the view that you present below. I look forward to this possibility.

Ok, now I've got this funny image of my Grandma in my mind. That should keep me from thinking about SOAs all day. ;)

Joe

David RR Webber wrote:

Joe,

This seems to be a very limited view of SOA as just messaging middleware and nothing else.

Now while some vendors may want to sell that - because that is all they have in their implementation stack - I've always viewed SOA as containing the means to direct and manage message interactions - and whether you call that workflow, message flow or process flow - its definately all part of the BPM box IMHO.

And - critically - as soon as you apply collaboration profiles to the messaging arena - you have to have some kind of collaboration description - to make agreement to - and to have the software check compliance with - manage state of - direct requests and responses - this all requires knowledge of the BPM steps and definition.

The separation into layers as you describe is the diagram #18 from the PPT - but just because you have these layers does NOT mean that the BPM is not an intrinsic part of the SOA. The layer metaphor is just a convenience to aid understanding for humans.

Like explaining to your Grandma how the steering wheel directs the wheels of the car - but the steering wheel is inside the car in reality - not sticking out from the roof!!

So products like BEA, iWay, MQSeries et al all have the process control stuff deeply embedded into the menus and setup of the messaging not to mention the inner working of the messaging engine itself already.

DW.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiu@bah.com> To: "David RR Webber" <dav@drrw.info> Cc: "ebSOA" <ebs@lists.oasis-open.org>; "Monica J. Martin" <moni@sun.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [ebsoa] Process-Oriented Architectures (POA)

David,

I am going to respectfully disagree with you here, mostly because I am looking at SOAs not only within the ebXML framework, but outside as well (that is my job given my position as a consultant to the US federal government). I assert that SOAs *support* the business process layer, and that the business process layer therefore resides on top of the services layer (at least in my view of "the stack"). So I don't advocate removing anything "from where it's been all along" - in my estimation, the business process layer has not ever been part of the services layer, but is rather supported by it.

Of course, I could be persuaded otherwise as our work progresses - I always keep an open mind.

Thanks for your excellent feedback.

David RR Webber wrote:

Joe,

The direct answer is - of course BPM is part of the stack - are you proposing we REMOVE it from where its been all along?!?

Is someone building cars without steering wheels yet?!? Is anyone buying them?

See ebXML architecture for starters - and then both JJ and my articles on SOA at ebXMLforum.com - with appropriate diagrams - not to mention slide #26 from presentation here:

http://drrw.net/presentations/ebXML%20Today%20-%20March%2004.zip

Cheers, DW.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiu@bah.com> To: "David RR Webber" <dav@drrw.info> Cc: "ebSOA" <ebs@lists.oasis-open.org>; "Monica J. Martin" <moni@sun.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [ebsoa] Process-Oriented Architectures (POA)

Hmmm...I think I missed a direct answer to my question in all of this. ;)

Joe

David RR Webber wrote:

Joe,

I just telegraphed the British Embassy and Prince Charles is going to have a word with his mother for us.

Nice to have this hot line. Clearly will greatly help us fend off imposters and claimants trying to usurp our position as the authorities on ebSOA.

You may also want to check out JJs article at http://www.ebXMLforum.com where he diagrams same.

Cheers, DW.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiu@bah.com> To: "David RR Webber" <dav@drrw.info> Cc: "ebSOA" <ebs@lists.oasis-open.org>; "Monica J. Martin" <moni@sun.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [ebsoa] Process-Oriented Architectures (POA)

David RR Webber wrote:

Joe,

I humbly submit this is a redherring.

Service Oriented IMHO already implies Process by extension - since behind the delivery of any service there must be a process controlling and facilitating it. Tha'ts why BPSS and BPEL are part of the SOA stack.

Thanks David - but according to whom are they part of the SOA stack?

Joe

We need another acronym like a hole in the head - let's leave that stuff to the professionals at Gartner to dream up, eh? ; -)

Cheers, DW.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiu@bah.com> To: "ebSOA" <ebs@lists.oasis-open.org> Cc: "Monica J. Martin" <moni@sun.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 9:30 AM Subject: [ebsoa] Process-Oriented Architectures (POA)

I know that our concentration is to be service-oriented architectures, but at the same time I'm thinking about what will lie beyond

(so

that

we

can best prepare). A term popped into my head on the way home yesterday (the DC Beltway apparatentely inspires me): Process-Oriented Architecture, or "POA".

Has anyone heard this term used before? I Google'd it and

found

few

hits, all of which seemed to be individual (rather than corporate) references.

As you can tell from the term, just as SOAs enable (involve,

pick

your

favorite word here) the use of shared services, POAs will

extend

SOAs

to

enable the use of shared Web Services-based processes that are

based

on

shared Web Services that are defined within SOAs, working in concert with each other. So for a US federal application (my primary client), this could mean a set of shared Web Services-based business processes for federal agencies, in a flexible, agile, process environment.

Does this concept resound with anyone?